Assuming for a moment that this war indeed becomes a "second Vietnam" and that there is a draft, what would you do...

Contrary to popular belief you don't have to be American to be drafted by the US govt. Permanent residents can be forced to fight in the name of a foreign government, for reasons I still don't understand. I am such a person and will not, under any circumstances, go anywhere to kill anyone. Then again it's not like I'd run for the hills either. I'm sure there's something I could do to help if I believed I should.

So I suppose I'd grudgingly have to answer "dodge" on this one.

Amusing that you assume no one here already serves. Also amusing that we're less than 2 weeks into the war, we've already partially invested the enemy's capital, and people are yelling "Quagmire! Draft! Failure!" U.S. Grant is chuckling in his tomb.

And, BTW, nobody in the military WANTS the draft to be reinstated. From grunts to flag officers, nobody I know wants even a single conscript in the U.S. military. The only folks I've run into lately who want the draft reinstated are people who wish to hamstring the military. So no worries; you can continue chasing money.

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"That we occasionally violate our own stated moral code, does not imply that we are insincere in espousing that code." --Major Napier, Stephenson's THE DIAMOND AGE

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Also amusing that we're less than 2 weeks into the war, we've already partially invested the enemy's capital, and people are yelling "Quagmire! Draft! Failure"

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I agree man. Video games have ruined us, people expect this to be over in a matter of days. Regardless of that, though, it's still running like a Total Annihilation game where the other side went to the bathroom for half an hour and didn't build anything.

The people who are calling out that the war is lost are just hoping it is, is all.

-Hawksfire, the Cheshire Harlequin

Splitcoil:
You are double right about that, friend.

Eleven days or so into the conflict, and the coalition has unchallenged air superiority, has killed thousands of the enemy, has taken thousands of enemy prisoners, has gobbled up hundreds and hundreds of square kilometers of territory, is closing the noose on Baghdad, and has suffered about 70 fatalities themselves.

On the down side, there has been a bit more guerrilla activity than originally projected.

The only thing I can say about these chuckleheads who are yelling, "Defeat!" is...nothing invites commentary from the ignorant like war.

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Originally posted by Zen Shooter:
Splitcoil:
You are double right about that, friend.

Eleven days or so into the conflict, and the coalition has unchallenged air superiority, has killed thousands of the enemy

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Never claimed.

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, has taken thousands of enemy prisoners,

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Retracted with enormous amount of shame.

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has gobbled up hundreds and hundreds of square kilometers of territory,

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_Linear_ kilometers. No control over the territory is achieved, this is the same shit that kept Russians constantly "winning" in Afghanistan while accomplishing nothing in the long run.

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is closing the noose on Baghdad, and has suffered about 70 fatalities themselves.

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That sounds outdated, but I can't confirm it.

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On the down side, there has been a bit more guerrilla activity than originally projected.

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US military (as well as most of the military forces) is not capable of suppressing "guerrilla activity" once it's started, the bet was on having none, mass surrendering, cheering on invading troops, etc. I see Afghanistan (or Chechnya for Ritalin people) all over again, and this can't end good -- either a prolonged occupation and a slow but steady stream of body bags home, or a victory and control over the country at the price of brutal massacre/genocide of local population.

Both outcomes are as good as defeat.

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The only thing I can say about these chuckleheads who are yelling, "Defeat!" is...nothing invites commentary from the ignorant like war.

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I don't call myself educated about the war, however being in Russia I have picked at least some knowledge about Afghanistan and Chechnya. The resemblance is striking.

...then to start sending your supporters (and detractors) to their deaths.

They'll drop a bunch of those MOAB bombs on Baghdad before they instigate a draft in the States. Why? Same reason we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Because it's better to keep high morale and therefore win the war rather than draw a winable war out and lose morale and therefore lose the war.

Also, any draftees would take several months until they're combat-ready, and honestly, by then the war will be over.

GW I started something like two weeks after I sent in my selective services card. The last war we had fought was vietnam, and none of us thought it would go the way that it did. I'm almost too old to be drafted now, but if my number comes up, I'm going.

That said, I don't believe that there will *be* a draft. People are freaking out because there's been a little terrorist warfare, because the country didn't just lie down. People who thought that (and I wasn't one of them) were just fooling themselves. Of course this is going to be a protracted fight. Of course there will be house to house fighting. We've killed hundreds of their soldiers, we've taken thousands of prisoners. The reason that the iraqi's haven't contested air power is because they have 90 functional aircraft, only 4 (FOUR!) of which are truly state of the art aircraft (mig-29s, best fighter there is) they know if they go up, they'll get shot out of the air. Same reason they aren't turning on the radar for their SAMs. They have almost no chance of bringing down any aircraft that way, but they also won't get blown up by counterfire. Of course, the real downside is that ballistically fired missiles just drop out of the air...into markets. But hey, they can blame that on us. If those had been tomahawks, though, there would be no street. That little scratch of a crater they're showing on TV, man, we don't bother dropping stuff that small.

Anyway, this isn't a quagmire, it's a case of inflated expectations on the part of the media. Maybe Centcom expected less resistance, maybe they should have wargamed more war crimes, maybe it doesn't matter. This will be over in months, and then the "occupation" wil be over in years. It's the occupation that has me nervous, actually.

Alex makes good points. The last thing Uncle Sham wants is a protracted situation like Russia faced in Afghanistan ("Chechnya for Ritalin people".... good phrase).

As for the draft: hahaha, fat chance.

I remember my last go-round with the draft (circa 1970). In fact, I still carry my battered and torn draft card as a reminder of how bungled the Vietnam game was. Back then we had a lottery. You want to talk about weird: some guy in a suit pulling numbers out of a revolving barrel, calling out "Number 12" etc. I think the cut-off for being called up was in the high 100s. My number was 270, making me an official reject. A status I still enjoy today.

There probably won't be, but I guess I go to get my phd with emphasis on alternate fuel sources

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Of course, the real downside is that ballistically fired missiles just drop out of the air...into markets. But hey, they can blame that on us. If those had been tomahawks, though, there would be no street. That little scratch of a crater they're showing on TV, man, we don't bother dropping stuff that small.

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No, you drop big stuff like this one:
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=392161

The funny thing, maybe tragic thing, is that a lot of the AAA stuff they're using, we sold to them. Back when iraq was an ally and iran was the enemy.

Look, I'm not saying that war is a good thing, or that civilians won't be hurt. It's inevitable, with that much lead flying. Especially considering iraq's practice of intentionally putting military facilities in the middle civilian populations. Rounding up herds of women and children and keeping them in the command bunkers. threatening family members if the males refuse to fight. pretending to surrender and then firing. dressing as coalition troops, getting people to surrender and then gunning them down.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how we're the barbarians here, and they're the noble freedom fighters. It's just goofy.

"So no worries; you can continue chasing money."
Greedy bastards that we are...I should be ashamed...
Couple of days ago I billed a client five hundred bucks for two hours of work.
Recession? What recession?

Quote:"Especially considering iraq's practice of intentionally putting military facilities in the middle civilian populations."
Hmmm...National Guard armories and other armed services "facilities" are located downtown in many american cities, so I guess this is not just an iraqui "practice".

I'm talking about troops kicking people out of their homes and parking their MG mounted trucks in the driveways. I'm talking about emptying out hospitals and using them as command bases. I'm talking about intentionally placing AAA equipment in the middle of residential neighborhoods.

Look, if you want to talk about the atrocities of war, take a look at the way hussein's troops are treating the civilian population. There's video feed of heavy MG fire laying into columns of civilians fleeing basra. reports of artillery shelling of same columns. Do you honestly think hussein is somehow more noble or just than us? Do you think that he's in the right, torturing his own population? Do you think rape is an appropriate motivational tool?

The fact that they are the bad guys doesn't make you the good guys.

You could be describing the Israeli Defence forces in the occupied Palestinian territories..

I certainly don't condone anything associated with Monsieur Hussein. But if my yard was being invaded by a bunch of yahoos toting serious ordinance, I'd:

1.) run like hell; or,
2.) use any methods available to screw up the invaders.

Any way you slice it, this stuff is gonna get weirder before it gets saner. Uncle Sham is losing the global Public Relations battle, which may prove more important long-term than the actual ground war.

Interesting concept: branding via war.

As I have posted elsewhere, I am equally opposed to the Israeli occupation of palestine. Iraq has been violating UN regs for 12 years, and Israel has been at it much longer. I side with Blair when he says that the next thing we need to do is address that problem, tout suite. I'm aware of the duplicity of the current American position, coming down on Iraq and ignoring Israel, but I think that it's something that can be fixed. Mind you, packing up and going home isn't going to fix the problem.

e.-
Okay, so we're not the good guys? Who is? The UN? France? What problems have they solved, what atrocities have they prevented? Do you honestly believe that the weapons inspections were working? Just ignoring the problem, or applying sanctions (which hurt no one but the common iraqi) or trying to legislate it away isn't fixing anything. I just get tired of hearing what horrible baby-killers we are, when we're taking such extravagent measures to protect the populace, and the other side is using them as ablative armor. Ick.

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Originally posted by Shadoth:
Okay, so we're not the good guys? Who is? The UN? France?

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This is a completely wrong question -- obviously, no one in this conflict are the "good guys". It's an absolutely false idea that to make something bad, it should harm some kind of "good guys".

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What problems have they solved, what atrocities have they prevented?

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If atrocities were prevented, how can one claim that they were possible to begin with? The whole point of peaceful diplomacy is to create situation that does not make people want to fight, be it within or between countries. It is not something that gets shown on TV, or gets corrupt politicians re-elected, but this remained the most efficient thing in international politics since the WWII ended.

US did not fight enough in WWII, and never got seriously hurt, so it keeps this warrior mentality, everyone else (maybe with exception of someone in Middle East) sees it as a kind of ancient warrior got here through some kind of a time warp, pulling out a sword every time he sees two drunks lazily swinging their fists at each other.

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Do you honestly believe that the weapons inspections were working?

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If the goal was to make sure that Iraq will not develop nuclear weapons (WMD that actually matter) and either have no or avoid using chemical and biological weapons (WMD that have low military value, and can not affect the outcome of a real war, just are inhumane to all the participants), then it worked great.

If the goal was to make Saddam surrender to US without a fight, and turn it into an US colony, then no, but I don't think, anyone in UN actually wanted that.

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Just ignoring the problem,

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There was no problem. Iraq was the least troublemaking piece of the whole Middle East for a decade, and US/UK planes were patrolling/occasionally bombing it for all that time.

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or applying sanctions (which hurt no one but the common iraqi) or trying to legislate it away isn't fixing anything. I just get tired of hearing what horrible baby-killers we are, when we're taking such extravagent measures to protect the populace, and the other side is using them as ablative armor. Ick.

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No one cares what measures are taken while invading a country that US should keep away from in the first place.