Although I'm inclined to agree with WGs views on drugs = creativity, there is one major exception to the rule and that's Philip K. Dick.

A self confessed speed freak who produced three or four fine works and perhaps two or three masterpieces, it's hard to imagine what Dick's writing would have been like if he hadn't taken drugs.

Even the works he produced when he was ostensibly "off drugs" were flush with the paranoic white light aura (see especially VALIS). Dick wrote that when he he had given up speed, he still had a rush when he sat down at the typewriter, a response akin to drug addicts getting a high when they see their paraphernalia (pipe, syringe, whatever).

So even when he wasn't "on drugs" he kind of was...

On another related topic, I have a confession to make. I first read Neuromancer back in 1987/88 while backpacking in Europe. I had nothing else to read and I have to say, I hated the book intensely. It was a real drag and when I had finished I threw it aside, dismissing it as the worst book Philip K. Dick had never written. I have obviously changed my view of Neuromancer and rate it highly, but I still think there is a very big PKD influence in it.

Any takers?

I think there was just more than drugs at work on PKD. Didn't he have some psychological problems too? Schizophrenia comes to mind. I thought I'd read that somewhere.

If your not outraged, you're not paying attention!

[This message was edited by Igpajo on January 12, 2003 at 11:01 PM.]

I've read a great deal of Philip K Dick's books, and while I would hesitate to say that his work was consistently masterful, I do think the bulk of his work, taken as a whole, contains an intense amount of challenging and transformative concepts. True, some of his work appears to have been lifted and warped from other author's ideas, but that seems to be the case with most authors.
PKD often wondered himself if he were schitzophrenic, but it is not the only hypothesis he entertained in regards to his particular outlook on life. He was traumitized from an early age with the knowledge of his lost twin, and it seems as though he was haunted by this dark-haired girl throughout his life, seeking her out in his relationships as well as his fiction. He also struggled with what appear to be masochistic tendancies, and while he may not have been schitzophrenic, there is ample evidence in his journals to suggest a schitzo-affective personality disorder of some sort. (Of course, schitzo-affective personality disorder is a socially biased judgement call... were he living in a tribal, shamanic culture, it's doubtful that any of his experiences and musings would even raise an eyebrow in my opinion.)

PKD's work at its most masterful was an exploration of the nature of reality, and a continual exploration of what keeps reality real. He created elaborate Purgatory-style closed systems, into which he injected his characters, thus discovering that enclosed system through the character's eyes, effectually creating philosophical arguments and puzzles through the course of a book. I'm thinking not only of Valis, but of A Scanner Darkly and The Divine Invasion.

In A Scanner Darkly you will notice, if you look very carefully, that the entire novel is a scathing commentary on the drug culture. It is a novel of disintegration, of falling apart, and how drugs and rehabilitation leads into a closed loop. There is no insight to be gleaned from druge use in A Scanner Darkly, only murkier and murkier questions (sequeing back into the arguement WG presented en blog)

Admittedly, PKD was exploring what makes human consciousness a real phenomena, as opposed to a hallucination or shared hallucination. It is doubtful that he would ever have encountered this particular theme, this hobby-horse, were it not for psychedelic compounds he had ingested at some point. (In the book The Unteleported Man, about halfway through the book, the plot melts down under what can only be described as textual LSD - there is absolutely no way that section could have been concieved under anything less than 500 micrograms.)

Now these themes are reamplified in today's science fiction precisely because it is such an important philosophical issue, one that has been brought into the mainstream because of the overlapping of mediated imagery with everyday life. In effect, the internet and television are doing on a social level what psychedelics were doing on an individual level when PKD was writing, and he was extrapolating from his experiences with the mallability of reality what he foresaw as ubiquitous technology that would allow for subjectively shared consensual hallucinations.

yikes. my first post got all bloaty. Quick summation - PKD's best books were written after he quit the amphetamines, but his memes came from gnosticism and psychedelics - plausible arguements regarding his drug use could go both ways.

!be fuddled!

(Hic) Ex Machina Libertas (Duh)

The half-life in PKD's Ubik reminds me of Bobby and 3Jane's existence in cyberspace.

On the drug thread the neatest one in PKD's stuff was in Now Wait for Last Year-the instantly addictive, time-travel drug that allowed you to bring back physical objects from your trip.

"Quick summation - PKD's best books were written after he quit the amphetamines, but his memes came from gnosticism and psychedelics - plausible arguements regarding his drug use could go both ways."

I think that's one of the best replies I've read online for a long, long time. I have to disagree with the above though, because I think that Man In The High Castle is one of PKD's best books and if the drug chronology is to be taken at face value, then he was high as a kite while writing it.

The echoes of Dick run through WG's fiction, not so much in theme, perhaps, but certainly in tone. I recall certain elements of Neuromancer (I thought at the time) being heavily indebted to that estranged, paranoic feel of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and a lot of the tech had a familiar echo from The Zap Gun, not to mention the fashion, cities and tech of UBIK. Another ineteresting parallel is the way PKD and WG weave the tech into the story as world building elements as naturally as a non-SF writer might casually mention a telephone.

In terms of theme, I think Idoru has a distinct Dickian feel to it. The combination of pulpy elements (detective figure), elusive pop star (your dark haired woman if you will), devolved popular culture elements (HiREZ) and so on.

I should also mention it is indeed these parallels that I have noted that made me reevaluate Neuromancer and everything after...

It's been my understanding, hearing from others that knew PKD and culled from various pieces written on him, that PKD may have exaggerated his drug usage somewhat.

In other words, it probably wasn't the drugs.

More likely it was having to eat horsemeat to get by.

--gabe chouinard
http://hypermode.blogspot.com
http://sfsite.com/singularity

I guess if WG hasn't read the books then the influence isn't there... but in the great tradition of art or literary criticism, he may be the least qualified to comment!

Seriously though, it's interesting to compare the two even if one disavows the other. There may be interesting cross streams of influence from other, third parties on the both of 'em.

.. and while for the most part they're well written (or maybe well edited), they all (of those I've read) contain an element of hopelessness. Can't say I noticed any sense of hopelessness in WG's canon.

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Originally posted by The Bear:
because I think that Man In The High Castle is one of PKD's best books and if the drug chronology is to be taken at face value, then he was high as a kite while writing it.

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Heh. Wierdly enough I've been unable to get past page 23 of The Man In The High Castle. I own it. It's right there, next to my aging dirt gray computer speaker, waiting for me to read, but I can't make it through. (And mind you, I've read almost everything else at least twice that PKD's written.)

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Another ineteresting parallel is the way PKD and WG weave the tech into the story as world building elements as naturally as a non-SF writer might casually mention a telephone.

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Gotcha on that - I certainly think that's a case of the characters taking precedence over the tech.
(The Truman Show & Time Out Of Joint have a lot of similarities for example)

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I should also mention it is indeed these parallels that I have noted that made me reevaluate Neuromancer and everything after...

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I think I recognize a pattern here... noting that William Gibson has made clear that the one PKD book he's read is the one I haven't and bypassing that entirely... I think the reason why PKD is getting so much recognition lately, not here, but in the mediasphere - is because what he explored is this idea of a dualistic (or panistic perhaps) reality - which we currently exist within. There is more going on nowadays than ever before simultaneously in both the physical world & the digital.

And since that's what's going on in today's world, and since that's what's being fictionalized by today's writers, and since that's what PKD's themes were when he was writing, then people assume there must be a link. The link is the reality in which we are living. PKD saw reality on many levels. His writing style reflects that. Then Gibson (who's writing is most definately informed by Pynchon & Burroughs - both of whom write on several levels within the basic text of their novels ~ Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49 might be the best conspiracy novel ever written/treatise on information decay) was tapping into that same folk motif that PKD explored, but he's doing it now, and the trend toward dualistic physical/digital reality is fully evident...
While it can be argued that PKD intuited the idea of cyberspace somehow - it did technically exist if you consider cyberspace in the form of telephones - it was not nearly as fleshed out as a possibility before it was named as cyberspace.

Once it got its name, then it really started to grow into what we have now. So is everyone ripping off PKD, or Gibson, or Sterling for that matter? Distraction (by the Bruce) had a lot of elements in it that I can also see in All Tomorrow's Parties. Did Gibson & Sterling rip each other off? Or are they simply projecting future probabilities based on trends latent in today's cultural memepool of scientific research?

I think thats the key - the science fiction author (as opposed to the fantasy variety) pays attention to how cultures react to innovation, then ponders the fate of the individual within these mutant cultures.

& now I gotta get offline & call japan

(Hic) Ex Machina Libertas (Duh)

I usually think of William Gibson and Philip K. Dick when I think about a change in my perception that I can pinpoint.
In Time Out of Joint when Regal finally made it to the city, the description of what he saw there is interesting.
But the real perception change was about the conflict between the human race expanding off the planet or staying isolated. My perception changed because I was reading Neuromancer around the same time. The description of the Sprawl and the expansion taking place and the descriptions of the cities are so good particularly when Case is on the octagons pulsing through; it made me feel like the characters were inside a huge organism and were just starting to realize it.
I've seen civilization as an organism ever since.
In Mona Lisa Overdrive it was like Gentry knew he was part of something else like a cell knowing that it is part of a human and looking for a way to describe it.

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Wierdly enough I've been unable to get past page 23 of The Man In The High Castle. I own it. It's right there, next to my aging dirt gray computer speaker, waiting for me to read, but I can't make it through. (And mind you, I've read almost everything else at least twice that PKD's written.)

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Give it another go. It's worth it.

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... Pynchon & Burroughs - both of whom write on several levels within the basic text of their novels ~ Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49 might be the best conspiracy novel ever written/treatise on information decay)...

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I've been thinking about this for a few days and I have to say two things struck me about WGs response to this thread. The first was that, nominating your "official" list of influences seems kind of absurd. In not for a minute suggesting you can't know your influences, I'm just been thinking that literary (and other) influences work on a lot of levels, not all of them concious.

The second things was: Borges, Burroughs, Pynchon - what a lot of very *respectable* influences to have.

I read WG before I read PKD and never saw a connection between the two in anyway. I don't consider PKD a good writer but more of a good bad writer. He's entertaining but some of his stuff, for instance Valis with the split personality of the main character, comes off as rather clumsy and heavy handed.Steve Erickson's take on PKD's career in American Nomad is dead on.

a little UBIK can't handle! Remember to use as directed.

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UBIK

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Read the description of the building and the clothes in the opening of UBIK and then get back to us about this ongoing denial of the WG/PKD link...

As for bad, yeah, PKD could be awful. On the other hand, he was a genius. Dissassociated personality syndrome? VALIS is a brilliant piece of pre-Post Modern identity crisis. "Adaptation"? Pah!

that there is this overwhelming desire to link these authors. Both created works that have redefined the science fiction genre. Suggesting obscure influences and references that links these two authors in a sick 6 degrees of William Gibson sort of way, diminishes the fantastic creativity these men brought to their works. It is a given that there is nothing new in all the world and that at some level each author borrowed from someone else, but such is the way with creativity. Like a parasite it latches on to your subconscious and waits until an opportune moment when you are feeling most creative, like a Ginkgo Biloba overdose, and attacks. And with a great, profound "aha" you re-brand, re-label, and re- market that last great thing. I brace in an asbestos vest for flame.

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I brace in an asbestos vest for flame.

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I'm not quite sure if this is directed at me, but let's just take a moment to sumarise where we are in this thread. It started with me observing that I thought there was a PKD influence in WG. Like the giant godhead in ZARDOZ, the author hoved into view and announced that he was catagorically *NOT* influenced by PKD. Fair enough. We are currently debating the quality (or lack thereof) of PKDs writing.

Here are some points: WG says, no, I am not influenced by PKD. I think it's kind of absurd to say you are not influenced by something or someone, when the unconcious connections may be there all along. But that's ZARDOZ's prerogative.

Point 2: The whole point of this thing, this board, is to discuss these "6 degrees of separation" ideas because who knows what may come out of it? Are you suggesting we should just get on with our lives and not worry ourselves over this? Maybe we should all just turn off our computers and go to sleep.

It might also be of interest to note the number of times PKD has turned up elsewhere on this board. He may not be an influence on WG but he sure as hell lives in the same conceptual neighborhood.

Now, where was my flame thrower?

I don't think of PKD as being an overly influential writer, more of an oddity. Maybe through the ideas he presented in his writings have influenced other writers but not the actually writing itself. The movies based on his writing have been altered heavily. Blade Runner bares very little likeness to the book DADOES.


Six degrees up and down,all around. Who was PKD influenced by? Is it possible that the ideas you find in common with both writers came from another source entirely?

off my asbestos vest even though I was beginning to like the warm tingle of the carcinogenic chemicals coursing through my veins.

No I am not directing my views at anyone. But if you feel as though your in my crosshairs by all means take offense. First of all as most threads do , this thread has rambled from topic to topic like my grandpa between naptimes. Its tangential behavior makes it difficult to address any single topic and be completely true to the thread. However, I was not

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suggesting we should just get on with our lives and not worry ourselves over this? ... turn off our computers and go to sleep.

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Quite the contrary you should run your computer all the time and sleep when your dead. There is no need to feel personal flame. I was stating a top down perspective\opinion on the thread. As evidenced by my handle I am a big fan of PKD. But I can respect each author as an individual entity. I believe that writing books is an incestuous business. And many authors probably don't read other authors of their genre for that exact reason. In order to stay "pure" they go to, what we would consider, to be very abstract sources.

I think a far more interesting question is what scientific inventions and products have influenced science fiction? If your anything like me you get a warm fuzzy reading popular science thinking about the future implications a new product or discovery may have.

First of all these are just my opinions...no flames please

Whether they are writing, painting, composing fantastic electronic symphonys, directing films or what have you, an Artist must have two things.
1) The creative drive, the desire to produce something that has never existed before.
2) Something to express, some internal thought or feeling that cannot be phrased in any other way than their art.

That said, drugs do interact with a persons viewpoints and perceptions. They leave a trace on the personality, no matter how imperceptible.But they don't create!

No tab of acid ever wrote a novel, no hit of exctasy ever wrote the dance hit of the week.

I am a musician. I have over fifteen years of extreme drug abuse under my belt, and rapidly retreating in the distance. Let me tell you, you can write about how you felt, you can describe the insight you feel you have had, but just getting doped won't make you a genius. It won't be substitute for for the hard work of actually doing it.

Undoubtably, PKD's drug use (and his schizophrenia) colored his personality and effected his work. William S. Burroughs wrote constantly about his perceptions of the world, primarly brought about by his drug use, but their product was the result of their own genius.

If drugs wrought creativity, we'd all be swimming in it by now.