quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
Very nice and well thought out post above, jbx (and the rest of you too). Been talking with folks about Mr Ahmadinejad, and thinking to myself how easy it is to slip into 'Oh, he's just a madman, his motivations are not accessible to me'. Whereas it doesn't take much empathy and decentering at all to get a sense of why the things he does and says make perfect sense to him.

Care to try the same trick, but with Cheney as the subject?

Heh, touché. That's admittedly a much harder trick, but yeah, I can do it. The fact that his motivations are identifiable to me as within the range of (my own since it's the only one I really know) humanity doesn't make me like them any more, and I do see his motivations as generally being the ones from the hate/fear/greed end of the human spectrum that I aim to control in myself, but yeah... and thanks for the challenge.

Ahmadinejad and Cheney can both feck right off. My mind isn't flexible enough to even try to consider eithers' excuses motivations.

Life's too short.

Both would have the world at war over words.

WORDS!

I tend to think also, that in mediated cases, Prez of Iran (not even going to try to spell that), or Cheney....much of what we "know" of them could very well be lies they tell the media for their own pragmatic reasons.

I mean, it's easy to project whatever you want on to an incomplete picture AND if the subject of the picture is sucking their gut in, wearing falsies, and poorly lit from only one direction...even easier.

Like how Islam the ancient and venerable religion is a religion of barbaric extremist misogynists, you know?

No real culture there, no great past histories, just grubby, camel-fucking primitives who blame the USofA for everything.

Or....not?

Anyway, point: It's easy to believe what they say in the media, but the media is just another tool for them, never the truth.

REsPECT da Chain-E

Surely you're not saying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Fuck them. Send em both to an asteroid out in the Kuiper Belt somewhere and lettum squawk.

Understanding doesn't mean agreeing with or condoning. It does mean it's possible to negotiate, rather than just go Dalek on their arse.

Senor Bravus, in hip cognitive neuroscience circles we no longer use the antiquated term "understanding," we now say "mentalize."

quote:

Originally posted by Trogdor:
Surely you're not saying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Fuck them. Send em both to an asteroid out in the Kuiper Belt somewhere and lettum squawk.

I give them the benefit of saying, "I don't know these fuckers from Adam at the personal level".

The rest of it tho, you can't go around reserving judgement forever, you gotta *operate* you know? Get some food on the table under the roof and shit.

Operationally I think they are fucks of the first water.

Of course they are, but "If each of us received what he deserves, who shouldst 'scape hanging?" Or, to put it slightly differently: if you start with killing them, where do you stop? Absolutely, lock up the serial killer and keep knives away from him. But murder just doesn't work as a policy, in large part because there are more than them than there are of us and they control the best weapons. So at some point 'operate' means 'negotiate'. If you can understand their motives, even if they're repugnant to you, you're going to achieve more success in that. Or, you know, we could just keep making growling noises at each other... which distinguishes us from these fucks how?

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
Of course they are, but "If each of us received what he deserves, who shouldst 'scape hanging?" Or, to put it slightly differently: if you start with killing them, where do you stop? Absolutely, lock up the serial killer and keep knives away from him. But murder just doesn't work as a policy, in large part because there are more than them than there are of us and they control the best weapons. So at some point 'operate' means 'negotiate'. If you can understand their motives, even if they're repugnant to you, you're going to achieve more success in that. Or, you know, we could just keep making growling noises at each other... which distinguishes us from these fucks how?

Oh yes, I very much agree. I was attempting to throw a bone to the Burninator that I didn't think those two were little lambs of perpetual innocence or anything.


Two things, then I sleep, or...read more VL (probably that).

You can only really negotiate until somebody uses violence. If that's them. If they have a lower threshold of, "Ahh, FUCK this, FUCK these guys!", then negotiation is off the table.

So it's a tricky one, even if you are willing to talk and be nice, if they decide not to be...it's kinda unilateral.

And secondly that people that want power, like Obama, generally scare the shit outta me on a deep level. I tend to think that "leaders" will lead, naturally, but to deliberately gather power to enforce and instigate changes in the world....I, personally, find it suspicious and hackle raising.

Still willing to negotiate and all that, and I don't think having opinions about others morality, so long as they don't extend to thinking you are Right because of that morality and killing them, is on the same level as murder.

Which, I don't know if that was what you were getting at, stupid linear text interfaces! (Oh, delicious linear text interface...don't ever leave me!) But...just to add some more pseudo clarity to things...

I'm not just saying I don't like them. I'm saying I'm not going to waste time trying to understand them. Don't care. Fuckem.

I'm saying that as an American about Ahmadinejad and Cheney and I'll bet there's a large contingent in Iran who feel the same way about both.

It seems to me that most of what Americans call justice of late is rather more aptly categorized as revenge.

We are very, very afraid of tomorrow and our uncertain place in it and we are responding as petulant children to a world suddenly more complex than we would like it to be.

Our government wishes to protect us from phantoms and in so doing ensures that those who seek to do real harm are able to do it.

Cheney, Bush and the entire mindset of Hawkish militarism and jingoism reek of adolescence to me. It's kind of sad to watch, alarming certainly, but what I feel when I'm not angry is a kind of paternal pity for people I feel just aren't smart enough to get on in the world as it evolves.

What is paradoxical (or perhaps merely ironic) is that they are smart enough to see their own obsolescence coming but are merely able to lash out with apoplectic rage and tantrums.

Teething in late capitalist republics is quite a cross to bear.

(and I apologise to everyone for taking us down the political road by using Ahmadinejad as an example - the discussion was more interesting before that)

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
(and I apologise to everyone for taking us down the political road by using Ahmadinejad as an example - the discussion was more interesting before that)

Well, it's all sort of related to me. "Justice" is really a word we use to enoble the ways in which we cope with fear and powerlessness as a culture.

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
(and I apologise to everyone for taking us down the political road by using Ahmadinejad as an example - the discussion was more interesting before that)

Lithos's Law: As a forum discussion grows longer, the probability of politics being brought up approaches one.

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
(and I apologise to everyone for taking us down the political road by using Ahmadinejad as an example - the discussion was more interesting before that)

Not ur fault Ahmadinejad and Cheney r teh suck.

My memories from school are very blurry.

As a mild sociopath, my view of people is also very blurry.

I guess the way I work is as follows :

I do not trust people I don't know.
But I won't be aggressive about it.
It's more like... neutrality.
If someone I don't know asks me a favor, and it doesn't cost me much, I'll grant it.
If they return the favor, then maybe I'll open up more.
If they don't, they're still on probation.
If they screw me up, I'll ignore them for the rest of their lives without ever thinking back on it.

But this is way too simplistic, and things don't really work like that.



For instance, yesterday night, while making our way through the crowd on the Champ de Mars, trying to find a good spot to watch the fireworks from, an old lady suddenly shouted at us :
"Get the fuck away, I'm watching the fireworks."
My friends tried to explain that we were not going to bother her, and would be gone in less than 10 seconds. But she just wouldn't stop yelling.
By the time it was my turn to walk past her, all I wanted was to punch her in the nose.
Total stranger. Instant hatred.


On the opposite side of the spectrum, there's this young girl I met at a party on Saturday night :
She was friendly to everyone, and really wanted to hear about people's lives. I chatted with her for a while, about nothing specific.
On the next day, my sister told me how at one point, the girl cried on her shoulder, about her recent breakup.
Knowing this, I now regret not having opened up more to her. Maybe I could have comforted her. I wouldn't gain anything, but I wish I had done it...
Total stranger. Instant liking.


Strange how life works.