So this week I am going back to the gym, or at least I will come up with better excuses for avoiding it. Truth is I was getting a bit bored with it and that is dangerous. I have wanted to get into something more athletic for awhile and have been thinking about some type of martial arts. The thing is I have no idea what I am doing. I know we have some people here who practice various styles. It appears in my area we have several school for things like Judo, Akido, MMA, kickboxing and Karate.

I have two problems.

First I have no idea how to tell if a school is any good. Are there any tips on how to find out what schools are basically afterschool kids camps and which are like the bad guy's school from Karate Kid (neither of which interest me)

Next, what style should I look into. I am looking for something kind of basic. Athletic and violent. I want to be able to hit somebody and take a few hits. I am not looking to use a stick or weapon and have no interest in anything set to music (sorry Wesley Snipes and Ian McDonald)

Any help from the board is appreciated and if you want to compare styles feel free too.

I have been involved in MMA for many years at this point. When picking a martial art some people will start by asking you if you want to learn a striking art (Karate, Muy Thai, Tae Kwon do) or a grappling art (Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo)? In the past (pre-1994) this was considered a legitimate question by many people. Today, if you want to learn to defend yourself then you have only one choice. You learn both. You learn MMA.

Unless you wrestled extensively in high school, you will most importantly need to learn BJJ or submission wrestling. Most Gracie's that I have either trained with or spoken to suggest that most newcomers add Muy Thai striking to their BJJ ground techniques to round out their basic skill set.



If I remember correctly you are in the Tampa area, if so, just give the guys at Gracie Barra a call. Tell them what you want, they won't spoon feed you martial art bullshit. If you are in a different area just let me know and I'd be happy to post a list of good MMA schools in the area.

That is pretty close to me too. It doesn't indicate what the prices are like. Any idea what the cost for these things is like per class. $10 or $100?

I would go with Krav Maga if you can find it in your area. I took Aikido for 3 years from a very good, practical teacher, but learning to defend yourself with Aikido is a long term process, doesn't come easy. Krav Maga would be what I would take if I were to do it over again.

The schools I've trained at generally charge by the month, 6 months, or yearly rate. It generally cost me about $100 per month for unlimited classes. The first class just go and they will lend you a Gi and give you one or two classes for free.

Here is probably the best MMA school in Florida. If it's close to you, you might like this better.

quote:

Krav Maga

real Jews fight MMA.

First, a quick word on styles. One of my teachers once told me, "The study of martial arts is like a mountain. It doesn't really matter where you start on the bottom: the higher you go, the closer you are to everyone else, and if you keep climbing, you will always end up at the same place. Finding a good school, somewhere with good students and a good teacher, that challenges you and makes you want to train, is more important than finding any specific style." Another put it more succinctly: "There are only so many ways to break a joint." You should be more concerned with finding somewhere that you are comfortable and that meets your needs than with worrying if Shaolin Snake Technique is better than Tap-Out Mixed Striking Jitsu.

quote:

First I have no idea how to tell if a school is any good. Are there any tips on how to find out what schools are basically afterschool kids camps and which are like the bad guy's school from Karate Kid (neither of which interest me)

My first suggestion would be to get a recommendation. Like any professional group, the top tier in a given martial art or geographic region tends to be fairly small, and many of the senior instructors will know each other, even if only by reputation. If you know someone in a style that interests you, or even better, an instructor you already trust, see if you can get them to suggest a school in your area. The alternative is shopping around. Like gyms, most schools will allow you to take a few lessons for free, or will offer a trial period for a low fee. Take advantage of this to figure out what works for you.

If you are shopping around, feel free to ask what federation or other accrediting body the school is a part of. Martial arts systems tend to be scrupulous about book keeping and quality control, and require every instructor to be certified to teach their system. Don't be afraid to contact the federation in question to check on instructor's qualifications if you want extra confirmation: there are plenty of stories out there of people passing off Chinese fireworks receipts as black belt certificates. If someone claims to be the last heir to a lost technique, or in possession of secret scrolls proving their lineage which you aren't allowed to see as a neophyte, they are probably bullshitting you.

Other things to watch out for are black belt mills or schools structured as a money making enterprises. Ideally, the students give the instructor money to keep the lights on in the school and the heating bill paid. The instruction is a gift from the instructor to the student, which the student returns through dedication and respect: the classic student/teacher relationship. Realistically, the instructor needs to keep the lights and heat on at his house too, and maybe send his kids to college, so he will want payment for his time. The problem arises when instructors see their school solely as a money-making enterprise. In a ranked system, look out for schools that have many ranks, each of which costs tens to hundreds of dollars to test for, with mandatory testing after X number of days. (Testing fees are not in and of themselves unreasonable: they often go to support the accrediting federation.) The same goes for schools that promise to turn you into a black belt after X years, particularly if they are willing to sign a contract to that effect. A good school tests on based readiness and promotes based on proficiency and how well an individual represents their school, not on time.

Finally, there are no ninjas anymore, nor are there ninja schools, and if there were, they would not be in the phone book.

Other than that, use your judgment. It's just like picking a college or buying a car: no one thing works for everyone, so take a look around and maybe kick the tires.

quote:

Next, what style should I look into. I am looking for something kind of basic. Athletic and violent. I want to be able to hit somebody and take a few hits. I am not looking to use a stick or weapon and have no interest in anything set to music (sorry Wesley Snipes and Ian McDonald)

If you're interested in willing fights, my honest advice would be to stick with the gym membership. Being a big, in-shape mofo who won't hesitate to hurt people is all you need to win a fight, nine times out of ten. Size, strength, speed and reach often serve people better than unarmed combat training. That being said, boxing might be what you are looking for. Boxers do a lot of conditioning work, develop excellent hand speed, and have to learn how to take a serious pounding. I'm sure Tampa has some sort of boxing gym.

That MMA acronym is driving me nuts.

Maim, Mutilate, Assault?
Muy Macho Attitude?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. Mixed Martial Arts according to wikipedia. Should looked before I posted.

And Krav Maga looks pretty cool! Of course, I hate fighting so I'd just be looking to end it if I did end up in one...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: heavyboots,

Hot. I was just searching for MA threads on WGB. And then this appears.

Editengine: My advice, from 15ish years of assorted bullshit.

Find a school you like. That's it.

There should be a good "vibe", whatever that means to you.

A good school will let you watch lessons and be happy to talk to you about their stuff and answer questions.

There is Martial Arts and then there is Self Defense, and they are orthogonal to each other. There is an area of intersection, but it's pretty tangential.

MMA schools are fine for sport fighting and perhaps the occasional "bar fight" type deal. You'll get plenty of physical conditioning, learn to be aggressive, and maybe get stabbed to death by somebody more serious than you. Of course, that might happen even if you go to a serious SD oriented "all knife all the time" school. Or maybe you'll knife the other guy in a legally indefensible way and go to jail for "surprise sex" buttrape.

These are things to consider.

It sounds like you have not done much\anything prior?

If so I'd suggest just checking a few places out, asking about money directly, seeing if you can observe a session, and see if you like the vibe\feel\atmosphere.

After all, if you don't like it...quit.

How about the rest of ya'll here? MA? SD? How much, how long, what kind? Still practicing? How often? Stories of having to use it personally? What was the situation? What was the result?

I've done Tai Chi for 15 years or so, dabbled in Kung Fu, taken some Judo (LOVE Judo), some BBJ, boxing, Muay Thai, scenario based adrenal response conditioning, self defense "stuff", and just started at a Kuntao Silat school. That shit is DOPE ya'll.

No street experiences, some tournament stuff with the Judo.

Past a point it all starts to gel with itself. Proper body mechanics\structure and weight transfer, combined with positioning and mindset....it's all the same.

Anyway. To restate.

Find a school you like. Period.
Money will be between 50 and 200 a month, and price does NOT relate to quality at all.

Since you are (I think) new, anything will be good, you can't know until you find out, basically.

I usually suggest boxing as the first option. You'll get hit, in the face, hard, often. Most schools don't include that level of contact and it makes them weak chumps, basically.

Judo is good. BJJ is usually MMA, and that's a fine base as well, but they are not sneaky enough for me, both being sport\dueling styles.

Karate\Kung Fu\etc\etc is too variable to really say, have to go and watch a lesson, watch some sparring, talk to folks.

And I'm happy to answer any questions you might have or opinionate all over the place.

How about the rest of ya'll?

Old MMA thread

Did some Tae Kwon Do 20 years ago or so, and some Karate a few years ago now. Enjoyed both but saw both as being about discipline and health rather than self-defense, although definitely just some of the basic elements of how to get out of a fight quickly and not hurt yourself would be vaulable, as would the confidence.

I'm not so sure about the grappling stuff in a self-defense context: something like Aikido, sure, where it's about staying *out* of the other person's grasp, but anything like the floor stuff you see in MMA matches has an excellent chance of getting you badly hurt on the street. You want to be out of any fight way before it gets to that level if you possibly can.

But I'm probably the least informed person in the place, so I'm more chatting in response to jbx' invitation than really answering edit's original query. I guess my answer to that would be the same - find a school you like, since your condition and the attitude is going to be far more important than the style... and the best style in the world is useless if you can't get motivated to go to class.

I've heard that the "overwhelming majority" of empty-handed murders occur on the ground.
But then I've heard justifications for BJJ that "70%" of "fights" go to the ground, but that statistic seems to have been derived from LAPD stats. So, yah, when you are a cop, and gotta cuff 'em, them on the ground and you on their back is a good way to do that.

On the other hand, grappling is great fun, and less injury prone (unless you're rolling with jerks) then stand-up.

I think that having some idea of what to do if you end up there (see early UFCs) is a good idea. After all the bullrush\ground'n'pound is a moderately common occurrence in "reality" and so knowing what to do to GET UP again is probably important.

Also, in Judo at least, the first thing you learn is "how to fall", since most people do not get in to fights, but most people do fall down, learning how to fall w.o. injuring yourself is actually a very useful "self defense" skill. FOOSH (Fall On Out-streched Hand) is a medical term because of it's commonality.

Thanks, Bravus, I knew I'd seen plenty o' passin' references to WGB'ers having punch'em'up skills, but they are scattered, thought it might be fun to see who does what.

What kind of Karate is it? And of course, what belt did you make it to?

Awareness, Situational Awareness, paying attention, and not being a asshole, those are the things that will keep you safe 99% of the time. Not engaging in sketchy drug deals and spending time at bars, those will cover most of it as well. So, really, unless you are a LEO, first responder, bouncer, or asshole, learning SD (or MA for SD) is not usually a good ROI.

Of course...it could save you terminal injury or crippling, but, point being, training with that in mind is fine, but unlikely, so it's more important (IMHO) to train for fun, 'cause that's what you'll mostly get out of it.

And of course embarrassing your drunk friends when they get uppity. ;-) Which is what grappling is *really* good for.

When future generation look back on Martial arts they will talk about B(efore)MMA and A(fter)MMA. Here let's get educated.

Is good enough for US Army SFs good enough for you?

For those of you who are confused let me remind you what it looks like to apply pressure to the carotid artery properly. This is not fake. Joanne of MMA Girls gets choked unconscious

quote:

Originally posted by editengine:
First I have no idea how to tell if a school is any good. Are there any tips on how to find out what schools are basically afterschool kids camps and which are like the bad guy's school from Karate Kid (neither of which interest me)

Man, you'd totally love the Cobra Kai and you
know it.

First, visit the school. Ask about what the
curriculum and training progression will be
like. Watch and participate in a class. See how
the vibe is. Is it too happy? Too aggressive?

quote:

Next, what style should I look into. I am looking for something kind of basic. Athletic and violent. I want to be able to hit somebody and take a few hits.

I'd say Muy Thai or western Boxing best fit your
criteria. The other striking arts tend to focus
on technique before you're allowed to punch each
other in the head. OTOH some styles of Karate
and Kung Fu stress strengthening the bridges, so
if you like the idea of pounding your forearms
and shins to a pulp on a nightly basis, that
might work for you as well.

I also agree with much of what jbx has written
in this thread.

I have a black belt in Chinese Kenpo. I've never had to use it, really, but my education covered self defense techniques (combinations of movements for common fighting situations), kata, sparring, and basic weapon fighting (clubs, bo, sai, knives) I haven't practiced in about eleven years, but I can remember most of it if I think hard.

Thanks for all the response. I will check into a few now that I have more info. We are pretty well known here for boxing schools (Winky Wright trained just up the street) and there is the MMA school nearby too that advertises free first lesson and seems to have a lot of beginner classes.

quote:

Awareness, Situational Awareness, paying attention, and not being a asshole, those are the things that will keep you safe 99% of the time.

I haven't been in a real knock down in years. I am big enough I don't look easy and not so big that I look like a challenge and I am really laid back. This is more for fun and to blow off some aggression as well as to test myself a bit.

I like what I have seen of Krav Maga. I will check for schools in my area.

Just don't become one of "those MMA guys", edit. I did the MKG thing (MMA schools that stress Filipino arts, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, BJJ, boxing, and a very little silat) for awhile until the school went down the tubes, so I have nothing against it. But the whole UFC phenom, with all its spinoffs, has turned it into something like professional basketball with all the merchandise available.

When I was last coming home at the airport, I ended up in a little clump of soldiers on their way to Ft. Lewis. Most were in normal human being attire, but one of them was decked out in MMA school crap from head to toe. His shorts, shirt, and slightly sideways ballcap all had massive, multicolored logos for various "fighting teams" and MMA schools. Total fucking doofus. When we were on the train together, I was sorely tempted to turn to him and ask, "So... are you into martial arts or something?"

Keep in mind that the Muay Thai thing can hurt you just as much as help you. A lot of people lose sight of the fact that the MT you'll likely be taught in the US is the ring sport version. It was intended to be used in a setting in which you're partly protected by RULES, and you're being fought by a guy using the same system. In a fight against someone who's trained to really fight to hurt or kill you and who doesn't care about rules, the MT stance will get you kicked in the balls and knocked on the ground in a few seconds flat. But anyway, it's very good conditioning and it does acquaint you with hitting and being hit, so it's still much better than nothing. Even if you don't spar, there's a lot of "give and take" in MT training that involves students beating on each other. It's very good for training you to keep your cool when you get hit.

The ground fighting thing's probably not a bad idea. The wisdom is that most real fights go to the ground. Not true in my experience, but the risk is certainly there and ground fighting is so much less intuitive and potentially more dangerous that it's probably a good idea to get acquainted with it. Especially if you're working security at rowdy bars. You don't want to get your neck broken by some asshole who studied BJJ for a couple months.

As others have said, I think the most important factor is the vibe at the school. If it's the macho man Cobra Kai vibe, don't waste a second there. I don't have any other good recommendations for you since you said you weren't interested in weapons, and most of the stuff I've done is Kali, which starts you with weapons and moves to empty hand.

Believe I am wary of the MMA-guy. I watch fighting sometimes but largely I am impressed by how many crappy fighters seem to be out there now. Slow and unorganized but they have their own tshirts and theme music.

By the way could I have started a more male oriented thread?

I just have a vision of female wigbers slowly shaking their heads saying, "he wants to get hit? what is wrong with this loser?"

Maybe I should go start a similar thread on the NGB, just for fun?

quote:

Just don't become one of "those MMA guys", edit

Way to start off your post Split by setting up a false dichotomy between "us" and "them". If you study Martial arts you are those guys. The reason MMA works is because it's nature is to incorporate what works in any style.

As for who wears what clothing I could care less but the ultimate question that has guided my study is "What can I study that will teach me how to fight and survive in real life on the street." Initially, in the mid 1990's, BJJ was the answer and I have subsequently moved into MMA.

quote:

You don't want to get your neck broken by some asshole who studied BJJ for a couple months.

For me, this is the most telling statement. The very fact that "some asshole who has studied BJJ for a couple of months" CAN break someones neck is quite a feat and perhaps the best reason it should be studied and respected.

As for this being a testosterone thread, perhaps, but around 20-30% of my classes are women. Welcome to the New World Order.

I really don't want to break anybodys neck. I think split meant they could do so because they had enough training to be dangerous and not enough to learn control? I wouldn't mess with Split too much, he has a devastating penetrating stare that could probably break a guys neck all on its own.

I am more comfortable on the ground anyway so maybe that style is a lot better for me. Whenever I do fight or get physical I do always try and get close to the guy and get them to the ground.