quote:

Originally posted by BlueShift:
a few cast aside their morality and humanity, fewer still devote their energies to preserving some legacy of mankind or preventing our death, but most just shuffle towards extinction, because they don't know what else to do.

Hell, I don't know what I'd do.
Arm myself and try to go on doing my job. Then have a depressive breakdown?

quote:

Nature has already conducted the equivalent of about a hundred thousand LHC experimental programmes on Earth – and the planet still exists.

Ah, Tunguska - fun for all the family.

Oh for goodness sake. Are you seriously suggesting that Tunguska was caused by a cosmic ray strike?

Extragalactic ultra-high energy cosmic rays - Comparison with experimental data discusses events over tha last 20 years well in excess of the LHC's energies; the Fly's Eye detector in Utah and its successor, HiRes detect loads of the things, all without the need to level several hundred square miles of pine forest.

I liked this post from Bravus. Sums it all up, really.

Edit: Gaaahhh!

best,
Chris H

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chris H,

quote:

Originally posted by symmetry:
No, but I will when I turn you over my knee for being willfully obtuse. And note that I am granting you the benefit of a 'willfully' there, unlike the rest of the mouthbreathing hoi polloi who show a demonstrable lack of understanding of probabilities and/or particle physics.

Oh, but that's only because we have better things to do.

My point was that last time someone shagged around with this sort of physics (in terms of novelty, of dealing with the unknown) we spent fifty-odd years sitting about a pubic hair's breadth away from total annihilation - or at least as near to total annihilation as makes no difference.

Of course my lack of understanding of numbers is worse than yours - but what confirms your better-than-the-average-mouthbreather skill with numbers is the inability to relate to others unlike yourself and not being able to see the big picture.

The GBFO picture is that while the experiments themselves may not destroy the world, creating a tiny black whole that lasts for a fraction of a second is a step on the way to creating a large black hole that lasts god-knows how long. Some bastard'll weaponise this research - which is the only immediate and tangible reason I see for the LHC. Remember, before we got microwaves, we had radar. And before we got spaceflight, we had the V2. Before we got nuclear power stations, we had Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Remember - Feynman was worried that his work on the A-bomb, and its ability to wipe us off the earth, would mean that no one would bother working towards the futures, as there was a good chance there'd be no future. He described his continued work on the bomb after the defeat of Germany to be a mistake. And remember, before Hiroshima and Nagasaki got nuked, Japan was throwing surrender terms at the US.

Two of the outcomes the Manhattan Project scientist bet on at the Trinity Test was that either New Mexico would be destroyed, or the atmosphere would ignite and roast the world.

Dunno, really. Maybe if you're a Yank (symmetry) or a Pom (ChrisH), tooling around this physics that could destroy the world is no big thing. The whole nuclear thing went well, more or less. And, well, if the Cold War did go Hot, you could've given (almost, in retrospect) as good as you got. Never mind the poor bastards who you share the world with, eh? Fuck 'em. Actually, Chris, that reminds me - where did Britain tests its bombs?

Truth is, whatever this LHC uncovers, I doubt we can be trusted with it.

So, I understand you may think I'm distracted by outside chances, in the Tunguska scenario, conjecture, but perhaps others are distracted by the prospect for something cool and obscure to study in university (and later pay out those who don't study it) or publish for a few dozen to read...or sell to the Pentagon - which is probably why the Manhattan scientists kept working. Chance to put their name on a paper, again - it's worth a few thousand lives. Incidentally, Chris, I never specified a cause for Tunguska - you seemed to have assumed one for me (and then judged me on that assumption.) But we're agreeing that it's natural, right?

The odds are indeed long that something bad will happen. Very long. Astoundingly long. Astronomically long.

But there's still a chance. Maybe that's what gets me, and what cause me to draw conclusion between CERN and Los Alamos - the fact that my life and millions of others are in the hands of a few dozen nerds, halfway around the world. No matter how slim a chance there is of those bastards killing me, I still don't fucking like it. Read Neville Shute's On The Beach to get an idea.

Of course, if it all goes to plan, that's cool. But what do they do with the research? Is there any benefit for me?

Or is it so a bunch of nerds can jerk off?

Of course, what is far, far more like to happen, is that something'll blow up when they're running tests on the LHC or still building it, doing millions of dollars worth of damage to a project that's already over time and extremely delicate and untested, maybe killing a few nerds in the process. Granted, one guy did get killed in the construction, but he was just a some dumb builder, who probably hadn't even finished his first masters degree.

But, hell, if CERN can cook up a localised explosion, I'll watch it on TV with a drink in my hand.

And, symmetry, dammit, if you wanna talk spankings, my emails in my profile.

Lith, are you arguing that fear-driven obscurantism might be a good thing?

If yes, you might want to think harder.


Shutting down CERN would not prevent any nasty doomsday devices from being cooked up by military labs (you know, the kind where they can do whatever the fuck they want, thanks to their holy government-approved screcy seals).

That's what I think, at least.

No.

But every little counts.

It's mostly the naivete that gets me - if someone's gonna nuke me 'cause they hate me, fine - but if someone destroys the entire fucking planet because they thought they'd get some cool numbers to crunch, that's another.

And if you wanna talk obscurantism, who knows what CERN ain't telling us? What if there's something drastically wrong with the LHC, or if the chances for it all going arse-up are much greater than they let on? There're billions of Euros and reputations at stake - and if they are wrong

I'm not saying we should stop all research on everything - that's a dangerous absolute to tried to put into my mouth, Ark - but is it worth it? So far, I've heard justification of the LHC amount to "could prove if modern physics theories are correct."

Whoop-de-friggin'-do.

As for the military cooking up something themselves, that may be true. But where do you hide an elephant, Arkan?

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But where do you hide an elephant, Arkan?

Wherever they want.

They have quite a lot of secured locations to choose from, and select personnel to involve.
I'm not talking X-Files conspiracy stuff. Merely stating the fact that people entrusted with secret military things do take their NDAs seriously.

quote:

but if someone destroys the entire fucking planet because they thought they'd get some cool numbers to crunch, ...

It's not like they don't have any idea what the LHC is going to do.
They would not switch it on, otherwise.

where did the brits test their n00kz?

Montebello Islands, Emu Field, and, more famously, Maralinga, Boog.



We were stupid to let them, though. Naturally, the British government filtered all information on the test, to keep our government in the dark. PM Arthur Fadden called up the British PM at the time and said, "What the bloody hell is going on? The cloud is drifting over the mainland."

Faaaaawwwk.

Lith, there's a tiny probability that pouring milk on your breakfast cereal in the morning will destroy the world. Is your yummy breakfast worth taking that chance?

And of course, we know that rockets and radar are bad things. Nothing good ever came out of military-funded science. I mean, look at the internet. What a mistake that was!

Not that the LHC is militarily funded, or that there's even a glimmer of military application for this research. It's about learning about the fundamental forces that make the Universe work, because, you know, stuff like that leads to applications, eventually. Like steam power and electricity and computers. You know, arguably useful things.

Oh, and new bombs, sometimes. People will find a way to fuck up good things. They always do.

If you're going to argue against the LHC, argue that it's a waste of money and resources, because the chance it's going to destroy the world is zero.

Hmph. Apologies for the derailing. I'll just sulk in the corner with my Big Science Tinker Toy Set.

I never thought you'd be the kind of guy that would picket at the entrance to The Machine, in Contact, lithos...

And yes, like Arkan, I feel we should worry more about the things brewing up in black labs at undisclosed locations than this one.

quote:

Originally posted by colin:
Lith, there's a tiny probability that pouring milk on your breakfast cereal in the morning will destroy the world. Is your yummy breakfast worth taking that chance?

You're quick to give me odds on the chance of the LHC destroying the world - can you give me odds on the chances of milk/cereal ending the world? Still, I've noted that, but I've decided to do it anyway. It's my decision, and doesn't affect anyone else. Not the decision of a bunch of Swiss nerds.

quote:

And of course, we know that rockets and radar are bad things. Nothing good ever came out of military-funded science. I mean, look at the internet. What a mistake that was!

Not that the LHC is militarily funded, or that there's even a glimmer of military application for this research. It's about learning about the fundamental forces that make the Universe work, because, you know, stuff like that leads to applications, eventually. Like steam power and electricity and computers. You know, arguably useful things.

Someone please point out the part where I said "all research is bad." You're deliberately trying to polarise me - I guess because I'm either with your or against you. Actually, radar was a bad example - microwaves are handy.

It doesn't have to be funded by the military. How did the Russians get the atomic bomb, if the US never shared the research? Hell, how did the Israelis get the plans for the Mirage fighters after the embargo?

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Oh, and new bombs, sometimes. People will find a way to fuck up good things. They always do.

Except the LHC, of course. It does nothing but pump out kittens and fairy floss.

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If you're going to argue against the LHC, argue that it's a waste of money and resources, because the chance it's going to destroy the world is zero.

No it's not. It's 10^-19, remember?

But of course it's a waste of money and resources. But since wasting 1.4 billion Euros is a much lesser sin than potentially wasting seven billion lives, do you think it'd help? The EU can do whatever the hell it likes with its money, as long as it doesn't involve me waking up in the goddamn next dimension.

I guess my ultimate point is that I don't like have my very existence in the hand of a bunch of freakin' EuroNerds.

quote:

Originally posted by fuldog:
I never thought you'd be the kind of guy that would picket at the entrance to The Machine, in Contact, lithos...

I'd have much rather picketed at the entrance to the movie studio that was filming Contact.

I dunno, fuldog, as much as I'm all for scientific advancement (especially given the alternatives), the phrase "black hole" gets me going. I've played Doom.

Here's a question for you, fuldog: do we know more about the surface of the moon or what's at the bottom of the Mariana Trench?

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It's my decision, and doesn't affect anyone else.

Ah, but if the bacteria in your milk participated in some funky gene transfer with those in your cereal, and created a super-Ebola with two week dormant period (what number scenario was that?), that would affect someone else, wouldn't it? And it would be your fault. You could have stopped it, if only you had known not to pour the milk!

Yes, it's ridiculous. So is getting worked up about the creation of mini-black holes because of what you've learned about physics from playing Doom.

I said the chance is zero because 10^-19 is zero, by any reasonable standard. It's a one in ten-billion billion chance. There are real risks in the world, risks each of us take every day, yes, even risks which could kill other people, even people we love, and we take them for hardly any benefit at all, or simply because we're blithely unaware of them. The LHC does not even register on the scale of these risks.

I'm cool with the Swiss Nerds taking a risk like that with my life. Maybe you don't believe that, but really I am, just as I'm cool with all those bastards flying airplanes over my head every day for their own convenience, which is much, much more dangerous.

Let alone the moon or the sea, lithos, do we (as in general public) really know what's in the stuff we eat, we breathe, we wear, we use daily, we coat our houses with? Do we know the long-term effects that the spectrum of radio-transmissions has on our little brains? All those things are affecting us, our existences, since a long ago already. Is that reason to fear every advance, to curtail research? No. We must deal with it.

That this might be a big jerking session for some physicists, well, yes, but it's their money. And if worse comes to pass, think of it, the whole planet sucked by a black hole: the ultimate wigber meet...

quote:

Originally posted by lithos:
Here's a question for you, fuldog: do we know more about the surface of the moon or what's at the bottom of the Mariana Trench?

The easy answer to that: we know too little about either of those places. But possibly more about the moon.

Besides, it's pretty ok to die when everybody else does. You won't miss any stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by shake:
Besides, it's pretty ok to die when everybody else does. You won't miss any stuff.

LOL

That's my motto for the day now.

Don't worry, Bruce Willis will save us anyway.

If we're lucky, he'll blow himself up while he's at it.