quote:

Originally posted by VillianGlib-sinBored:
Way to start off your post Split by setting up a false dichotomy between "us" and "them". If you study Martial arts you are those guys. The reason MMA works is because it's nature is to incorporate what works in any style.

You always spaz out when this topic comes up. The "those guys" I referred to are the UFC groupie merchandise freaks who want the whole world to know what "fighting team" they belong to or follow. They're dorks. Yes, a lot of them could kill me in three seconds flat. Doesn't change the fact they're dorks. These are the same guys who would deck themselves out in the livery of their favorite basketball player or NASCAR driver, or wear a USSOF "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" shirt in different circumstances. It's an idiotic human behavior which is not caused by studying MMA. Relax.

quote:

For me, this is the most telling statement. The very fact that "some asshole who has studied BJJ for a couple of months" CAN break someones neck is quite a feat and perhaps the best reason it should be studied and respected.

Yep. Like I said, ground fighting is much less intuitive and much more potentially dangerous than the whole striking game. A big guy who keeps his cool can do just fine in a fistfight with no training. Regardless of any training I may have had, editengine is a big guy and it would only take one good punch from him to lay me the fuck out. But ground fighting doesn't seem to be hardwired into humans the same way. It's dangerous, and you can bet that any half-drunk asshole who has studied it at all will aim to take you to the ground as fast as he can, to exploit that advantage.

As for the testosterone thing... one of the things to look out for in your school is how instructors interact with very pretty female students. There's some inescapable level of extra attention to pretty girls by male instructors-- it's part of the culture and part of being human -- but if you notice the instructor obsessing over the pretty girl all the time, then go ahead and walk right out. Because training quickly becomes all about the instructor getting laid. This is why I left the school I used to be at. Some jaw-droppingly gorgeous women showed up in super-tight "check out my T 'n' A" attire, and the school totally fell apart. They lost interest in teaching, and I lost the necessary respect for them. If the owner and most of the instructors are youngish males, this could be a problem.

It can work in reverse, though. One of the instructors was an amazing Jeet Kune Do practitioner, and she happened to be an amazingly beautiful woman. I can objectively say she was the best instructor there, but in addition to that, I paid very close attention to everything she showed us. Which is why I retained so much JKD, even though it was only a small part of the curriculum. I get all flushed just thinking about crescent kicks.

quote:

Originally posted by VillianGlib-sinBored:
When future generation look back on Martial arts they will talk about B(efore)MMA and A(fter)MMA. Here let's get educated.

Is good enough for US Army SFs good enough for you?

For those of you who are confused let me remind you what it looks like to apply pressure to the carotid artery properly. This is not fake. Joanne of MMA Girls gets choked unconscious

Those clips are hilarious. Thanks!

Oh, and in terms of the testosterone thread thing, who hasn't been reading striv's posts over the years?

1st
tsun-zu (or whwtever his name was; "the art of war", ya know) said: "pick your battles." in this respective me recommendes running first and striking to the balls second krav maga style.

2nd
if you want to get fit, do whatever feels best for you. if it is martial arts, so be it. it's a damn shame that mma grew to a phenomenmnpiureg that it is today; too many wannabees..
but in my opinion mma is as real as it gets if you wanna be able to defend yoself

p.s.
me went to no school. self-learned since 1981 (5 year old). took basic course of krav maga in 2000, to get a bouncers certificate. the course cost more than me have made as a bouncer.. nowadays do mostly yoga and tai-chi

quote:

Originally posted by Buell:

but in my opinion mma is as real as it gets if you wanna be able to defend yoself

I'm interested, what makes you think this is the case?

First let me say that I like BBJ, boxing, Muay Thai, and Judo, the general basic essentials of what is now called MMA.

But....self defense? Really?

Those clips that VillianGlib-sinBored posted seemed anything but.

yeah, that video of Joanne from MMA Girls is funny. I actually like to masturbate to that when I'm feeling down. It just kinda cheers me up to see her choked out like that and unable to talk... Anyway, enough of my masturbation habits, what exactly do you know that we don't Bruce Lee?

And by Bruce Lee I'm referring to you jbx. Show me someone who understands "the general basic essentials of what is now called MMA" and I'll show you someone who can beat the fuck out of 99.8% of the world's population.

Boxing.

Work out with a bag and concentrate on power shots to the body. Doesn't matter where. Ribs, side, belly. Doesn't matter as long as it's a good hard punch. No one expects to be hit there. And oh but fuck does a rib shot hurt.

Hit some in the face and you may knock them down. Sometimes.

Hit them hard in the ribs and they will SIT down.

heel to the balls, heel to the balls!


(I'm just posting this because I think this Bas Rutten "remix" is hilarious with the rewind double takes that are added, but in all seriousness Bas is one of the biggest badass fighters in the world, you can see this great "bouncer tutorial" here.)

Reading an Andrew Vacchs novel this weekend and was reminded of the rules: hard to soft, soft to hard. Just backing up what Troggie said: why bust up yer hard knuckles on a nasty hard face when there's a nice soft solar plexus handy?

quote:

Originally posted by VillianGlib-sinBored:
And by Bruce Lee I'm referring to you jbx. Show me someone who understands "the general basic essentials of what is now called MMA" and I'll show you someone who can beat the fuck out of 99.8% of the world's population.

Yah I figured.

Define self-defense for me.

I mean, not only would I like to know what you think it means, but...what's the situation which you think would be best evident of a self-defense context?

A guy with a knife? Two guys with knives? A dude with a gun and his unarmed partner?

Or...two well-trained individuals, in a ring, with rules, there for mutual combat?


The Army Rangers certainly don't use that stuff (the BJJ), they might get trained in it, but it's guns, bombs, and airstrikes for those boys.

99.8% of the world can be beaten up by anybody with the proper mindset and 0 training. Taking a half-trained fighter and putting them in some situation to beat people up wouldn't really change that number. I disagree about the 99.8% part, but I figure you're mostly being hyperbolic.

The clips you posted indicated that in ring fights, tournament fights, two dudes, on mats, with rules, that those who trained BJJ beat many folks that did not train BJJ.
They indicated that BJJ training is used to create what is usually called a "warrior mindset" in special forces trainees.
They indicated if a big dude already has the back, with his hooks in, on a tiny girl, who doesn't resist, and is already in perfect position, he can force a blood choke in 8-10 seconds. I'm pretty sure I can pull a knife and open his femoral artery in that time.

In martial arts a fight is only a "win" when you beat the other guy. That might mean a sport match, with rules. Or it might mean a battlefield encounter with death as the result for the loser.

In self defense, NOT getting in to a fight counts as a win.

Like I said back on page 1 of the thread, MA and SD are orthogonal to each other.

So let's just restrict ourselves to "martial arts" then. Well...wtf does that even mean? Martial is from Mars, god of War, and means "war". Most "martial arts" are not actually martial then, right? Because we don't go challenging people to kickboxing fights, we bomb the fuck out of them, shoot the fuck out them, etc, etc.

So then let's dial it down even further. Martial arts now much means: Single (dueling) combat between two evenly matched (weight classes) opponents?

Tai Chi can teach people to hit very hard. Boxing can teach people to hit very hard. Muay Thai as well. Also Hsing I folks, and Silat folks.

So if we're talking about rolling around on the nicely padded ground and punching each other in the face, then it's actually down to training methods isn't it?

MMA is an effective training method because it removes forms\kata, involves live resisting opponents, and due to the rules (which allow folks to avoid horrible crippling injuries) you can train at a high intensity level, often, which allows your skills to increase much more rapidly than (so called) "traditional" martial arts.

Right?

But if we took a variety of assorted techniques from other styles and trained them in the same way would we see the same results?

Maybe.

But since "MMA" is a pretty organized system of rules at this point. That is, tournament fighting, obviously you must learn the techniques which will make you successful in that set of rules.

For instance a MMA trained person is likely to do poorly in a Judo tournament, and a Judo guy is likely to do poorly in a boxing tournament, and any of them are likely to be in a lot of pain doing a Kendo tournament.

Then there are additional factors we might consider as well. But let's start there.

Again, I enjoy MMA training, I enjoy watching MMA fights, I don't enjoy the (bullshit) macho subculture that surrounds it, but so what. I think "MMA" is a fine method of physical instruction. I'm certain that if you take a top MMA guy (a man, in great physical condition, on steroids, who has been training for years and years (most of the best MMA types are college and high school wrestlers, many of them have black belts in other martial arts, and THEN you add on the MMA stuff)) that they can beat the fuck out of most people. Provided they don't get shot first (again if martial means war then shooting a gun is a martial art).

But since I do not think you are talking about martial arts in that sense, but only in the limited sense of "two dudes fighting in a cage, with rules, for money" then MMA is probably a pretty good method of winning those fights.

But then...what is "MMA" as a "martial art"?

It's like a blend of boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, wrestling, right?

So if we take 5 martial arts then...we get one martial art? Which is "better" than any of them individually? Isn't that still really 5 martial arts? Because, again, a BJJ tournament dude will have more time to practice BJJ than a boxing\BJJ guy, so he'll probably beat a boxer\BJJer. Assuming that they are physically identical, mentally in the same state, etc, etc.

Or a "MMA" guy vs. a straight boxing dude, under boxing rules, probably the same.

This is what we might call a "scenario". Self-defense is all about scenarios. Two dudes with knives. You vs. the bouncer in a small crowded bar. Or a dude downstairs in your house at midnight. What's the applicability of MMA to that? Or a cop against a MICA (mentally-ill chemically-addicted)who is in the midst of a PCP and schizophrenia induced freak out? (remember his department will have use of force regs and there are liability issues to consider in addition to that) Should he just shoot the dude? Or should he begin ground-fighting with an individual who may bite and be sero-positive for AIDS\Hep C?

I don't think I know anything you don't. In fact you have me at a disadvantage. Because I'm just guessing what you mean when you say martial arts, so in fact, you know something that *I* don't.

Want to share?

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
Reading an Andrew Vacchs novel this weekend and was reminded of the rules: hard to soft, soft to hard. Just backing up what Troggie said: why bust up yer hard knuckles on a nasty hard face when there's a nice soft solar plexus handy?

Or...why use a fist? Open hands work pretty fine, along the hard\soft theory of things. I've been hit hard enough with them to feel them thru a very large padded helmet.

Or....why use a hand at all? How about a nice brick. Or I think "glassing" is popular in some parts of the UK.

I guess that's not really a martial art anymore, but then...why not wear padded gloves over your knuckles like boxers and MMA boys?

So many wonderful options to be considered.

quote:

Originally posted by VillianGlib-sinBored:
heel to the balls, heel to the balls!


(I'm just posting this because I think this Bas Rutten "remix" is hilarious with the rewind double takes that are added, but in all seriousness Bas is one of the biggest badass fighters in the world, you can see this great "bouncer tutorial" here.)

Rutten is a bad man, no doubt. And funny. I loved the period when he was a ringside commenter for Pride (I think it was Pride), "liver shot", always.

Q: "Define self-defense for me."

A:

quote:

the ultimate question that has guided my study is "What can I study that will teach me how to fight and survive in real life on the street." Initially, in the mid 1990's, BJJ was the answer and I have subsequently moved into MMA.

If a guy pulls a suitcase nuke or MP-5 on me and I can't get away, I'm dead.

If a guy pulls a knife on me and I can't disarm him or maintain the distance, I'm dead.

If a gang of Latina women in my neighborhood try to rape me, I'll die happy.

Oh yeah, jbx, I was just being concise. There's the whole 'soft to hard' side of that equation still to look at. It's just I was hearing a fair bit about punching in the head in the thread... albeit mostly in the context of boxing where they do wear gloves. But the original query was about something that will work for self-defense on the street or in a bar, and what I said about punches applies then. If a strong guy like edit wants to end a fight as fast as possible, a thunderous gut-punch is going to get the job done with minimum damage to himself, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Bravus:
Oh yeah, jbx, I was just being concise. There's the whole 'soft to hard' side of that equation still to look at. It's just I was hearing a fair bit about punching in the head in the thread... albeit mostly in the context of boxing where they do wear gloves. But the original query was about something that will work for self-defense on the street or in a bar, and what I said about punches applies then. If a strong guy like edit wants to end a fight as fast as possible, a thunderous gut-punch is going to get the job done with minimum damage to himself, IMO.

Naw, edit's original question was: How do I find a good school? And what is basic, athletic, and violent.

I think we've got him sorted on those points.

Now it's just me and the Villain in a internet slap fight for macho supremacy.

quote:

Originally posted by VillianGlib-sinBored:
Q: "Define self-defense for me."

A:

quote:

the ultimate question that has guided my study is "What can I study that will teach me how to fight and survive in real life on the street." Initially, in the mid 1990's, BJJ was the answer and I have subsequently moved into MMA.

If a guy pulls a suitcase nuke or MP-5 on me and I can't get away, I'm dead.

If a guy pulls a knife on me and I can't disarm him or maintain the distance, I'm dead.

If a gang of Latina women in my neighborhood try to rape me, I'll die happy.

Indeed, so isn't the thing that will help you survive learning to spot suitcase nukes and MP5s?

or learning to disarm knives? Do you do that at your MMA school?

If you can find a school that teaches how to get raped by hot Latina women....let me know where it is, k?

Meh, what do I know? My true area of expertise is the marital arts.

I'd talk about my martial arts experience, but the first rule of my club is that we can't talk about it.

I should point out that my boxing knowledge comes from my youth and was gained through what took me down -- not what I took others down with. I had two TKOs in my favor, both from a little blood round my opponents' eyes. I myself got took down five times, all body shots. One of those took my breath out, the others were pure pain. Not such pain that your legs fold. Your legs no longer exist. Nothing exists but the pain.

You never remember going down. Twice I've told the ref to quit counting because I'm not getting up anytime today.