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Originally posted by Sentinel400:
And yelena, I think you'll find the Best Damn Show On TV™ is not Babylon 5 - it's _Homicide: Life On The Street._ Fact!

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Of course. "The best damn show" line came from my lurking, years and years ago, on the alt.tv.homicide USENET group.

As for the rest of the discussion, I've got nothing really to add, except keep going!! Especially re: morality. Some of the points raised are thoughts I've had myself, and the questions asked the ones I was (clumsily) trying to get at with my original query.

Yelena

[This message was edited by Yelena Virago on August 17, 2003 at 11:06 AM.]

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Originally posted by wraith:
So no one else thinks that Yin = 1 and Yang = 0.

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Yin and yang are perhaps best described as
opposite ends of a spectrum. Everything contains
elements of both. Yin follows yang and yang
follows yin. If you had something that consisted
entirely of one, eventually elements of the other
would show up.

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What about martial arts as a spiritual practice? Anyone here trained in martial arts? I mean China wanted to arrest people for practicing a form of Tai-Chi, labeling it a religious movement, some even say it's a political movement.

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I think what you're refering to is the Falun Gong,
which is not a form of taiji. Falun Gong is, afaik,
a form of qigong which is a form of exercises
designed to improve the qi flow throughout the
body. Beyond that, there is a bit of religious
significance that surrounds the people who
practice this form of qigong (qigong can be as
secular or as religious as the people who practice
it want it to be).

Taiji, or more appropriately, taijiquan is a
martial art, not a qigong. All martial arts
utilize a combination of li (muscular strength)
and qi. A martial art that emphasizes the use of
qi, like taijiquan, does use some qigong exercises
to improve. In some places taijiquan has been
effectively neutered so that while you'll still be
getting a benefit wrt qi related health, you won't
be able to use it as a martial art.

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I want to take up Chi-Kung. Chi fascinates me.

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Qi and qigong is interesting. I've seen some
interesting things done with it. Some people
don't believe it exists, while others see it in
everything. Still others see qi as just a
different explanatory framework for things that
western science has (mostly) already classified
and explained. It sort of comes down to what you
believe.

Today, while walking my bike through an old railroad
tunnel, I got to thinking about hell and the
underworld.

We've already touched upon the fact that Judaism
doesn't have hell. It's not really in the bible, iirc. So where does it come from?

Does the early Gnostic groups have a hell (even if
it's called something else)? Do the eastern
churches have it? Is it something pulled in from
the Roman mythos?

Ideas?

Google Sheol, Gehenna and hell and there's tons on it. For instance The Use of "Hell" in the New Testament

At the time of Jesus, you had Jewish as well as Hellenistic influences going, so at least 4 words were used for hell, Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna.

My personal favorite was Gehenna, the trash dump outside Jerusalem. Fires burning constantly, which isn't unusual for large, open-air dumps. Be good or you will be thrown on the garbage dump and burn forever. Eeew.

Morality is a pretext for power distribution. And since the history of power distribution in human societies has, for the most part, been written and wielded by men, the current concept is fundamentally biased.

Discussing this fabulation, i.e. western religious thinking, outside its patriarchal roots is clearly a non-starter.

Ironically, creationist theology, as unscientific a starting point as it may be, obviously enshrines metaphysical dictums to support a statistically proven, biological truth: that the male of the species is physically stronger than the female of the species, and thereby the "natural" vessel from which god's truth should flow.

Consequently, deficiencies assigned to the feminine flow from this singular proof. Hence, the vein of misogyny than runs rampant through the various epistemologies held dear by the poets of masculine tyranny across time.

I don't view morality as a contest between good vs evil, but rather as a rivalry over the distribution of power. The modality: equal vs inequal.

If the locus of power is a chosen god which reflects masculine psychology, anything that threatens to usurp his vantage must be inherantly evil.

Nazi Feminists anyone?

The curse of any male-centric morality is that it necessarily objectifies women in order to lay claim to the future by controlling the genetic pool. Conversely, one could repeat the droll supposition that it is actually woman who wields the sword, more so because she wiles her men to carry it for her.

Apart from such semantic diversions, definitions of morality are inextricably bound to identity politics vis a vis procreation.

Polygamy? Gay marriage anyone? (add the requisite technological/physiological modifications, and KAZZAM, you got a whole new species of humanity)

Referencing my comments in the postmodern thread... disassemble the current procreative model, and it opens us up to a whole new ball game to play out; perhaps one in which there are more checks and balances to rein in the abuse of power.

Your Name Here, that sort of thing belongs over on the Wizard of Oz Postmodern thread.

And how the heck did you leap from religion being a power ploy among males to it being a distinctly western phenomenon???

Has my education been so pathetic that I've missed out on all those matriarchal Chinese emperors? They must have skipped all those Persian god-kings who were really egalitarian feminists?

Hmm, in the future, kindly take more care in setting up your straw men before you start attacking them, thank you very much.

Originally posted by JohnBellham:

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Your Name Here, that sort of thing belongs over on the Wizard of Oz Postmodern thread.

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Taking a detour around dogma might take you here:

http://www.malepregnancy.com/science/

or here:

http://www.azstarnet.com/star/Sat/30816Imalemomssh.html

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And how the heck did you leap from religion being a power ploy among males to it being a distinctly western phenomenon???

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How do you come by that conclusion?

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Has my education been so pathetic that I've missed out on all those matriarchal Chinese emperors?

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For starters, there was only one official Empress, and Mrs. Wu Chao was her name. As for the unofficial ones, only the ghosts of concubines past might impart gossip of who stood behind the throne, and who just kept it warm.

Besides, I make no assertion that woman, simply by being deigned low man on the totem pole, was or is endowed with higher virtue because of it.

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They must have skipped all those Persian god-kings who were really egalitarian feminists?

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You don't want to forget Persian Empresses Poorandokht and Azarmidokht Sassanid, who are probably rolling in their respective graves right now.

Oh, and you better check your clock, this is 2003, not 632 A.D.. Iran is not the Persia of yore.

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Hmm, in the future, kindly take more care in setting up your straw men before you start attacking them, thank you very much.

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Are the Taliban postmodernists I wonder? Funny isn't it, how texts, holy or otherwise, can be read more than one way.

Oh, goodness, enter "Taliban" and "postmodern" into Google and you might find something like this:

http://www.leftwatch.com/articles/1999/000005.html

Look out for them straw men, not all of them are as flame retardant as you think.

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Originally posted by Your Name Here:
Originally posted by JohnBellham:

quote:

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And how the heck did you leap from religion being a power ploy among males to it being a distinctly western phenomenon???

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How do you come by that conclusion?

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I believe that may have been a response to this:

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Discussing this fabulation, i.e. western religious thinking, outside its patriarchal roots is clearly a non-starter. [emphasis added]

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The discussion here isn't actually limited to solely western religion.

Thus, if I have learnt anything from the postmodernist threads, you were trying to impose hermeneutical bounds on the discussion in order to exclude considerations of non-western religious thought from the dominant discourse. Or something.

Bah. Let me toss a huge generalization or two into the soup. Religions are generally male-dominated (at least externally) because males like playing heirarchy and dominance games in much more obvious ways than females do. Females prefer, or perhaps have been forced (that is a whole other discussion), to act as 'the power behind the throne.' (I'm not sure I believe that, but it sounds like an interesting starting point.)

Morality is often conflated with sex and reproduction issues because sex and reproduction is at the basis of our culture (for good reason, one could argue). If one is going to put forth moral guidelines concerning violence and murder, sex comes under scrutiny soon after, if only for the reason that sex is one of the many reasons that humans do violence on one another. Changing the nature of sex and the relationship between sex and reproduction will change morality, but it will probably never remove sex from the sphere of morality.

Hmm. The "sphere of morality", I believe you people were discussing whether there is such a thing and where its bounds would be before I rudely interrupted. Please continue.

Ne? Ne!

Originally posted by colin

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you were trying to impose hermeneutical bounds on the discussion in order to exclude considerations of non-western religious thought from the dominant discourse.

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Well! I take offense sir at your exclusion of my exclusion in argument against exclusion.

Your Name,

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Morality is a pretext for power distribution. And since the history of power distribution in human societies has, for the most part, been written and wielded by men, the current concept is fundamentally biased.

Discussing this fabulation, i.e. western religious thinking, outside its patriarchal roots is clearly a non-starter.

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Your text, sparky.

As for Empress Wu, she was neither matriarchal nor matrilineal. She was a woman who took office from her sons, and whose grandson took office from her. As such, her reign was an exception to a patriarchal system; she did not institute matriarchy.

As for Poorandokht and Azarmidokht, if their reigns qualify the Sassanids as either egalitarian or feminist, I suppose Queen Elizabeth, Queen Isabella, and Margaret Thatcher all qualify western civilization as egalitarian feminist societies as well?

Gee, if we aren't required to follow any consistent standards, we can claim anything we like, how fun!

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Look out for them straw men, not all of them are as flame retardant as you think.

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Oh, and since when were straw men ever known for being flame retardant in the first place?

Do you mean to say that not all of them are as flammable as one might think? Oh wait, forgive me for assuming you mean to mean anything when you type. There I go again, imposing my own coercive 'coherence good, drivel bad' narrative of your discourse.

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Originally posted by Your Name Here:
Ironically, creationist theology, as unscientific a starting point as it may be, obviously enshrines metaphysical dictums to support a statistically proven, biological truth: that the male of the species is physically stronger than the female of the species, and thereby the "natural" vessel from which god's truth should flow.

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Which explains the myriad of matriarchy-based societies and religions in the world, how, exactly?

Just wondering.

Yelena

I believe the point there is that upper body strength is the essential indicator of religious truth.

...

Well, it is in the church of Crom anyway.

"My god will crush your god!"

Ne? Ne!

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Originally posted by colin:
Well, it is in the church of _Crom_ anyway.

"My god will _crush_ your god!"

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In order for this discourse to remain inclusive of middle eastern viewpoints, I suggest:

"Hasaaaaaan CHOP!"

This should be appended to all future references to Crom and the general state of crushing to which, in his function as a deity, he pertains.

All in favour?

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Shifting on the richter scale...

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I believe the point there is that upper body strength is the essential indicator of religious truth.

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So, lessee, Buddha is often depicted as a big round guy with a huge belly, and Jesus was a Carpenter, so we conclude that Jesus could kick Buddha's ass? Hrmm.

Does that theory extent to political truth as well? Is Arnold Schwarzenegger a better politician because he is more pumped up than say, Cruz Bustamante?

Was Lou Ferrigno a better actor than Bill Bixby in Incredible Hulk??

That may be what he *meant* to say, but as for myself I remain agnostic on this theological doctrine.

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBellham:

quote:

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I believe the point there is that upper body strength is the essential indicator of religious truth.

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So, lessee, Buddha is often depicted as a big round guy with a huge belly, and Jesus was a Carpenter, so we conclude that Jesus could kick Buddha's ass? Hrmm.

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Doubtful. Buddha bodyslams Jesus and knocks him out cold. Don't you ever watch sumo wrestling?

Regardless, Cthulhu simply eats both of them, thus proving (once again) that my god is better than your god.

Okay, so when did wraith's insightful and inspiring thread on faith, religion, morality, spirituality and belief systems of every kind, turn into Celebrity DeathMatch featuring the Deities of Your Choosing?

Oh, wait, that's American Gods.....

Yelena

But I say that in a good way! I own the hardcover! I like Neil Gaiman's writing! Really!

(Bonus points to the lamer who gets the lyric in the post title. And proceeds to spend the remainder of their week trying to get the tune out of their heads.)

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Okay, so when did wraith's insightful and inspiring thread on faith, religion, morality, spirituality and belief systems of every kind, turn into Celebrity DeathMatch featuring the Deities of Your Choosing?

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Oh I quiet like it. If only religous wars could be solved by a game of Tekken. And the winner is...Lei Wu Lan for Buddhism!

Thanks for the martial arts breakdown Marshy, so, the question is, do you feel some sort of spiritual/ harmony thing happening whilst practicing your arts?

Anyone want to move on to Religious themes in Sci-Fi? Was there any Sci-Fi/ Fantasy fiction out there that you really connect with spiritually? Which ones and explain in what way?

To me it's always the nature of creativity and imagination that intrigue me. We create smaller worlds in reflection of our own creator, video-games, fiction, fantasy, these are all in some warped way, a reflection of some sort of macroverse above us as we are above the worlds that we create and preside over.

My personal collection includes;

'Calenture' by Storm Constantine.

'Weaveworld' by Clive Barker, also as mentioned; 'Sacrament'.

I gain a lot of insights into spirituality from fiction. My belief is in a truth so vast it can only be described through metaphor and symbols.

Understood through some sort of peripheral epiphany.

Not as daft a concept as it sounds, after all Jesus himself taught through stories.

'The Matrix' was obviously gnostic. 'The Light of Other Days' by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter showed us what happens if we were to discover the unvarnished truth.

Iain Bank's 'Whit' showed us life from a Cult perspective.

What else? Yes, as Yelena mentioned 'American Gods' by Neil Gaiman.

Patrick O'Leary's 'The Gift'.

Fp mentioned Douglas Coupland's 'Hey Nostradamus'

'Snow Crash' was fascinating. Babel, Nam-shubs etc.

I mean you need to strip a lot of the plot and fiction to get to the essense but I've found some themes that have just struck a chord with me. I mean I won't ridicule you if you want to believe in the literal truth of talking snakes and that we all spring from Adam and Eve's lineage. I see a lot of those really really old testaments to be metaphor and symbolism.

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[This message was edited by wraith on August 20, 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

The closest I get to any spiritual feeling is listening to John Coltrane.

Music! Mantras! Magic.

Vibrational pirate signals to shape reality to our desires. Prayers.

I mean, the sheer reality-shaping weight of a few hundred million people praying in unison.

The technology of Faith.

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