This morning I dreamt that I was at a garden party. It was a sunny afternoon and I was sitting with fashionpolice, talking about the first schools we attended as little children.

I was saying that I remembered school as a terrifying place to be, where arbitrary cruelty was the order of the day, where you could never quite relax because there was always somebody ready to fight you or steal your stuff for no reason at all except that they could. Fashionpolice said that school was a very entertaining place to be, that manipulating cliques was a very simple thing to do once you understood the rules of inclusion. She was never intimidated. She was careful. She paid attention to the signals and knew how to interpret them to her advantage. I said that this merely proved my point that school was a terrible place and in fact people were mostly worthless. She laughed.

I don't know whether fashionpolice's dream avatar represented her views accurately - I suppose she can tell us when she next logs in - but I woke up thinking. It made me realise that I kinda hold two opposite views of humanity at the same time. I believe people are essentially good. And yet I also believe that humans are basically selfish and destructive brutes who crave power over others and will do almost anything to get it. These should cancel each other out. How can they both be true? But maybe it's like how physics laws change at the quantum level. Position and Superposition?

So, what do you think? Are people good or bad? Do you trust your fellow man? Would you stop to help someone with a flat, or drive on in case it was a trick to get you to stop to drug and rape you and steal everything you have?

Do you give money to people who ask you for it with varying hard luck stories or dismiss them as scammers?

If a stranger does something nice for you, unbidden, do you wonder what's in it for them?

All I know is that you're a fool if you search for one solid platitude, one sole truth.

That may or may not be true.

Gotta separate "people" from "friends". Here on the WGB I think people are good, decent, I trust them and I hope they trust me.

In the world at-large, the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%, no. They're all assholes, pretty much and they're really really stupid to boot.

But I'm confident. I can operate amongst em. I say they're gonna wear a dong gourd, they're gonna wear a goddammed dong gourd. As far as giving money to people. I do so in person a lot more than via the phone or internets. Homeless familiy in the Walmart parking lot? I'll give em a couple hunerd. Guy holding a sign (standing there obviously perfectly healthy) that says he's a vet and needs money? Fuck him in his worthless ass. He should have stayed in the Army. It's a job.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.

And the difference between the homeless vet and the homeless family is the kids. The parents might be every bit as worthless, but not the kids. As a rule, adults deserve what they get from life, kids have it forced upon them.

What about at school, though? Most of the misery kids visit upon each other happens without adults present. In fact, happens because adults aren't present. Why?

Influence of the biological urge?

quote:

Originally posted by Sentinel400:
What about at school, though? Most of the misery kids visit upon each other happens without adults present. In fact, happens because adults aren't present. Why?

Then adults should be present more. My dad was in the military and until I was in the 8th grade, I was in schools on military bases. There was ALWAYS adults present and competent ones. No one picked on anyone else. So it doesn't have to be bad.

Once in public schools here in the states, I learned to manipulate the system, I guess. Like Dream-FP. I do remember a few instances of being picked upon. It was a racial thing and it was just one or two times. Obviously it didn't influence the way I am. I understood it for what it was. Eventually fought it to more or less a draw once, and that was it.

But even that could never have happened in a school on a US military base back then (don't know about now). Teachers may have kicked your ass if you deserved it, but not the kids. Didn't happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Sentinel400:
What about at school, though? Most of the misery kids visit upon each other happens without adults present. In fact, happens because adults aren't present. Why?

Because you aren't born as human being, but have the chance to learn to become one?
(cheesy formulation, I know, but you might get my notion?)

Empathy might not be smth. that is part of our basic operating system, but something that we can learn. Maybe the impulse to learn can be stimulated by the presence of adults who give an example and the kids urge to learn by imitation.
And there's always the good old: "Don't do evil unless you can get away with it ..."

Curiosity:
Why the german terms in the title? Does "boese" sound more evil than evil?

Those teachers on US military bases would strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger. Which is a teacher's job. They are stewards. They should do their fucking jobs.

I don't remember school being really horrible* until junior high.

Kids pick on each other because, I believe, hierarchy and dominance are strong instincts. And besides that, they learn that it works (at school, and probably at home, in spite of the best efforts of parents-- or not).

That said, I have heard that the English school system is particularly rife with bullying, at a level entirely above and beyond the sort of psychological torture (and mild physical violence) kids visited upon each other in my schools. I have no idea if this is really true, but your (Sentinel's) description only serves to reinforce that impression.

Anyway, are people basically good or bad? Like you say, both. Most people are pretty nice if you get to know them, or if they identify with you. But most people can also be pretty nasty, especially if they think you are out to get them, somehow.

Maybe I'll have more to say after I've thought about it a bit.

P.S. Why German? Because German is, at least in certain circles, traditionally the language of philosophy, maybe?

* Aside from horribly boring. I remember actually coming home in tears one day in 3rd or 4th grade, having been unable to force myself to re-enter the school after lunch, because it was so... damn... boring.

quote:

There was ALWAYS adults present and competent ones. No one picked on anyone else. So it doesn't have to be bad.

I think that underscores the significance on Sentinel's question, though. They still require Lord of the Flies in literature courses?

[EDIT]: but this behavior occurs beyond adolescence. Recent attention has been drawn to studies indicating that bullying in the workplace is more frequent than sexual harassment.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JosefK,

quote:

Originally posted by JosefK:

quote:

There was ALWAYS adults present and competent ones. No one picked on anyone else. So it doesn't have to be bad.

I think that underscores the significance on Sentinel's question, though. They still require Lord of the Flies in literature courses?

No. Children don't have to have horrible lives. Yes, if left to themselves, they would have. I might have been one of the bullies, given that environment. That's why we have adults present in school. Makes a big difference when those adults do their jobs. I guess most of the time they don't and that my school experience is an exception. Exception or not, it does confirm that schools don't have to be left to the law of the wilderness. When they are, it's someone's fault. It's some adult's fault. Some adult is not doing his or her fucking job.

At school I got picked on. This one guy, Floyd, was always punching me in the guts. So, over the summer before 8th grade I did a shit load of sit-ups.

On the first day back at school Floyd thought he'd pick up where he left off. He jabbed me hard in the guts, but I breathed out and reflected the force with my newly trained abs - his hand fucking exploded. Blood everywhere - all up the front of my shirt and on my right oblique. Poor son-of-a-bitch was screaming like a squirrel getting torn apart by a crow.

Didn't learn though. He tried to punch me in the kidneys the next day. Luckily I'd been working the incline back extensions as well and this time his left hand exploded, leaving a strawberry smear up my back.

I pissed all over his pathetic wrist nubs. Kids called him 'piss-soaked nubbler' for a while.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sentinel400:
What about at school, though? Most of the misery kids visit upon each other happens without adults present. In fact, happens because adults aren't present. Why?

I was lucky, we only go one convicted paedophile working at our school. (He didn't work in my house, anyway.)

I've gotta admit, growing up, when other kids that did starjumps nekkid for pizza, it just doesn't seem weird.

You just gotta keep your head down, don't interact much, and have bigger speakers than anybody else if you don't like bad hiphop or nu-metal. Because everyone else should damn well wake up to Yngwie's version of Beethoven's 5th.

Most kids are surprisingly respectful of a quick wit, dry cynicism and the ability to complete homework for a modest fee. Especially if you've got nothing else going for you. It may get you suspended, though.

And if the kids have to eat at school, no one'll pay you out for taking Home Ec.

It's true that kids were the greatest source of ire, but you shouldn't count on adults to remedy that, even if that's what they're paid for. Eventually, though, you learn that nothing they can do to you their can have any lasting repurcussions, unless you that paedophile does get to you. Let him get as far as you dare, then get some nice cash-for-comment for TV 'bloids. Hide your money, your durries, and get a Kensington lock for your laptop, if you have one. Don't let the others know how much porn you've got unless you're using it for leverage. Steal as much milk as you can.

Get a coffee machine, you'll use it to compensate for the lack of sleep. Laugh when the doctor tells you "A kid your age should be getting at least nine hours a night."

You will learn to measure time in weeks. And sometimes, the nine-hour bus ride home will be worth it.

Look after your feet. Dry between your toes and for the love of god don't chew your toenails, even if you can.

And colin, you have no idea of boredom until you start taking three hour showers just to pass the time.

If you do want to, for some reason, join the Cadets, remember that there's a lot of time between the start of the school year and Anzac day, and that it's in summer.

Don't form open friendships with the opposite sex; some fucker'll work out how to use it against you. Not worth the flak. Actually, act indifferently to everyone.

Don't say no to the PNG guys, for anything.

The Hong Kong students will leave their areas, goin' AWOL for weeks at a time. They have the best stuff to steal.

Bacon + Beans on toast: breakfast of champions.

When the born-again Christian HoH decides he doesn't want to let you eat breakfast, turn the spigot on the coffee urn on when he sticks his finger under it. That will get you suspended.

And remember, this education you're getting is no better than a state school one. It just costs more.

I'd agree we each have both natures - hence the references in pretty much every religion and 'system of the world'. It comes down to which one we build and which one we suppress/contain/mitigate.

I think that tends very strongly to be environmental, particularly in kids: both in terms of their peers, their parents and the other adults in their lives. Basically, kids aren't innately either good or evil, they're just trying to construct lives and personalities out of the pieces they're given. Some are given better pieces than others, in all of their environments.

(And that actually has almost no correlation with religiosity or the other frames that claim to be about morality - plenty of examples of good and evil in any of them, at about the same proportion as those who claim to have no frame but living a good life.)

I get what you're saying, Trogdor, but actually assuming that the vast majority of people are bad will make it so, through both attention effects and the way you react to them. There's that old story:

Two men wished to move to Syracuse. Each, at a different time, asked Socrates to tell them of the people of Syracuse. Socrates said to the first man "Tell me of the people of Athens, where you live."
"They are evil, greedy and rapacious to a man," he said, "each searching for his own advantage - and more, each searching out ways to do evil and harm others."
"I am sad to report that you will find the men of Syracuse to be the same," replied Socrates.
When asked about the men of Athens, the second man replied "I find them to be good-hearted and kind. They each support their families and friends as best they can, and will help a stranger when the opportunity appears. They seek knowledge and beauty and share it with those around them."
"I am pleased to tell you that you will find the men of Syracuse to be the same," replied Socrates.

I also think the decade or so just past has been one of politics and ideologies that catered to our more evil angels in terms of greed and conflict and intolerance, but that we might be beginning to turn the corner on that. (These macro trends play out as an overlay on the micro trends of individiuals lives, schools and families.)

Boy was I nasty in your dream.

Either I was too weird to get picked on in school or I was too dense to get that I was getting picked on. My survival strategy for school was to help out the other kids (they could cheat off me as much as they wanted) and be a smart-ass with the teachers. I think it was my basic insurance for getting through school.

I didn't really fit in but luckily wasn't picked on (much). I got ridiculed a bit for some of my "fashion-forward" outfits - older students singing the classic circus theme song, but that was about it.

There were only 40 students in my graduating year, so there were only so many "clique"-combinations. Our class basically was split into two groups - the ones who were going to go to university and the ones who weren't. No real animosity between them, just not all that much interaction.

My classmates always just assumed that I was studying a lot and wasn't interested in partying, so they never invited me to "quarry parties" (You drive out in the country with a keg of beer to a rock quarry and drink yourself silly and drive home). My Dad scared off any potential boyfriends (or perhaps it was my braces and glasses) and I just practiced my flute (and started running my senior year) and waited until I could leave town.

Very liberating to start University and leave the tiny village I grew up in and make my own decisions away from the repressive parenting I grew up with.

More alsoer, I think that, despite their claims, religions largely tend to reflect the zeitgeist rather than to lead it.

To a certain extent my representation in your dream is correct.

I do think I understood the basic mechanisms of inclusion and knew that my only way of surviving was to act subversively around authority figures. It was my avoidance strategy.

As far as the other questions:
1) Are people good or bad?
I think there are both good and bad people.

2) Do you trust your fellow man?
I read body language and listen to what's being said. I'm very trusting unless I'm getting signs that this is a scammer, psychopath, criminal etc.

3) Would you stop to help someone with a flat, or drive on in case it was a trick to get you to stop to drug and rape you and steal everything you have?
I think I would be entirely useless in helping them deal with a flat tire. All I could do was offer to make a phone call and my cell phone battery is usually dead.

4) Do you give money to people who ask you for it with varying hard luck stories or dismiss them as scammers?
Very rarely. It really depends on my mood and how good or bad their story is. Sometimes I'll give a panhandler money just because their story entertained me even though I didn't believe a word of it. But I'm far more apt to give some money to a beggar who looks like he's having no luck (and hasn't had much sleep or a meal lately). There's a certain look to a person's eyes when they are genuinely in despair.

5) If a stranger does something nice for you, unbidden, do you wonder what's in it for them?
Nope. I just assume it's a "good" person and that it's karma. (I've paid for people's groceries when they've forgetten their wallet (albeit under $25.00))