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I was just thinking about how often I go off on tangents in Write Something Now or What Happened To You Today about writing-- how we do it or fail to do it, strategies, making up character names (OK, that wasn't me), what the best music for writing is, on and on. I thought it might be useful to have a thread for this, like the photography one. People who don't care about this stuff can avoid it, and people who obsess over it have a one stop thread to get their hit. If I'm wrong, this thread will sink into obscurity. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Come to think of it, there may have been another thread...

Anyway, my latest worry is that I'm just incredibly slow at writing. My first drafts dribble out at 300 to 500 words a day, when I manage to work on them. What's my problem? Is it a problem? I spend a lot of time fussing over word choice and sentence structure, even on the first draft, and even more time just sitting, staring into space, trying to figure out what's going to happen next. It seems to work for me, though. So, what works for you?

Or, you know, whatever you want to talk about.


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Posts: 11836 | Location: Silicon Valley (not Japan) | Registered: May 28, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Oh yeah, we don't have to stick to novels and short stories. Comic book writing, screenplay writing, article writing? I'm interested in all of it.


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there was a period there where i would write a lot. my job at the time was working in a bookstore, so i had words on the brain constantly. i would wake up and write first thing if i didn't have to go in and open that day.

it worked pretty well, something about having thought about where i left off the previous day or those thoughts had time to gestate while i slept at night. or else if it was time for something new i'd be that much closer to the inspiring dream state....


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Posts: 3314 | Location: Austin, Tejas | Registered: May 02, 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I've been writing out my comic lately- Like a shirt story-
It's better for when I am coming down to the illustrating part- It helps me cut out the stuff that has no real value to the story-

I've wasted a lot of time drawing out parts that I won't ever use-



After that come the note cards, one for each board I draw- It a lot of note cards at times- Depending on what I want to happen on each page- This helps me get organized, and figure out where everything is supposed to go-
I try to leave myself open for a lot of change-


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Posts: 3449 | Location: Island closest to hell- | Registered: January 24, 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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i think there has been a lot of talk about writing. but i think it has always been in the write something thread, don't think we ever had a dedicated thread. though, its possible that i misremember.

my writing is, for the most part, an esoteric thing. to a degree i need to get out lots, see lots, soak up the world and let it inspire me in all its little ways. when i was driving for 3 hours a day i wasn't getting the right inspiration, so did tend to feel i wasn't writing as much.

i should try getting some discipline, trying to focus more, getting motivated and involved. i have been writing more with the new year. at the moment, hand writing first draft is working best for me. taking time to sit aside with a pad and write get thes focus, then actually typing it up is what is taking the time.

on bigger projects, from nanowrimo experience, i start trying to sketch out the shape of the idea. taking time to write a road map, where point A is and where point Z is. adding steps in between as i go, and adjusting those steps and the general route as it becomes clearer what will or won't work.

um. which is all rambly. and just me wanting to contribute and encourage this thread.


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Posts: 16386 | Registered: January 15, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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this is something i came across in my saved reference file at work the other day while bored. its a talk by the writer ken macleod, talking about writing. so, i guess its relevant to this thread...

quote:
Talk for Birmingham SF Group 13 April 2007

First of all, many thanks for inviting me. There are so many writers
and scientists and other interesting people out there that - according
to careful scientific studies - statistically, a writer can expect to
be invited to speak to any given local SF group at the most twice. The
first time it's when their first book comes out and they're new and
exciting. The second time is when people are saying things like, 'If
we want to hear him again we better invite him now before the Brain
Eater comes for him.'

It's great to be back.

What I'd like to talk about is what I've been doing since I was here
last. A very little about what I've written and a lot more about how I
write.

The first time you asked me here I was asked to say something about
the actual process of writing. I had written one book so I was
supposed to know all that. And I think I explained that it starts with
one or two characters in a situation, and out of the logic of that
situation they go into action, and the world sort of builds up around
them. I must have said something about writing down lots of notes and
cutting them up into little strips and laying them on the floor and
crawling around. This was when I was writing on an Amstrad. And I
probably explained the whole thing by an analogy with the computer
game Civilization II, where you start off with a little guy holding a
spear and standing in front of a hut, and as he walks around and steps
on to new tiles the world gradually takes shape around him, with the
rivers and forests and other societies coming into view.

Now this might not have been the best of analogies because what I
didn't mention was that I was absolutely crap at Civ II. There I would
be, Emperor Abraham of the Americas - Honest Abe, they called me, at
least my flatterers and courtiers did - with my people clawing their
way up to some kind of crude early form of feudal system somewhere on
the Eastern Seaboard, and my emissaries would keep bringing me
alarming news from the science front, like: 'Sioux medicine men
discover genetic engineering,' and 'Egyptian priests launch solar
observation satellite.' And my adviser would pop up and say: 'Pay the
soldiers! Pay the soldiers! ....aaaagghhh'

What I may also have ommitted to tell you was that writing in that
gloriously unplanned, make it up as you go along manner takes a very
long time. I started writing The Star Fraction in 1987 and it was
accepted for publication in 1994. I was working as a programmer all
those years and technology had moved on so much that by the time I
finished I was working with computers more advanced than those my
characters had in chapter one. I had to go back and cut out all the
references to Amstrads.

Now this manner of writing is all very well when you have all the time
in the world, or think you do, but it doesn't stand up very well to
deadlines. So ever since then I've had to plan my books much more in
advance. This turned out to be a process rather like programming. It
starts with days of staring at a blank screen and sheets of paper with
a few scrawls and coffee-mug rings and tear-stains on them. Then you
write a few lines of code and you find they don't compile. At least
that's what programming was like for me. I mentioned this to a friend
who is still a programmer and he said, yeah, that's what it's like for
most programmers. Except Charlie Stross, he said. He would look over
the spec and then start coding like a man possessed. So writing is
like programming for Charlie too. I hear he has eight books coming out
this year.

It was while I was writing my second novel, The Stone Canal, that I
was shown a very good trick. It's a difficult one to learn for
yourself but once you've been shown it it's very easy and you can then
do it for other people. The way I learned it was this. I was working
at Edinburgh University and I had one novel published and I noticed
that the writer in residence, Andrew Greig, was a poet whose work I
had much admired. So like any shy student I took a sheaf of poems I'd
written over the years and left them in his pigeon-hole, pencilled in
an appointment for about a week later and tiptoed away. When the
appointment came round and I met Andrew Greig I found he was a sound
chap and he quite liked my poems. The longest and most pretentious of
them you can find in last year's Novacon special, I'm sure Rog Peyton
can sell you one later. More importantly it turned out that Andrew
Greig lived about ten minutes walk away from where I live and about
thirty seconds walk from the local pub. You can see where this is
going. I introduced him to all my skiffy friends and he introduced us
to the Scottish literary mafia. And to Shirley Manson, which impresses
a lot more people, which is why I take every opportunity for
name-dropping.

Anyhow, one evening in the pub I showed Andrew a few pages from
Chapter 2 of the manuscript of The Stone Canal, and he read through
them and showed me the good trick. He took a sharp pencil and worked
over a few paragraphs, crossing out phrases and sometimes whole
sentences. He called this removing the fluff. The effect was indeed
like removing fluff from a record needle. (If you don't know what that
means, ask someone older.) Once he had shown me how to do it I could
do it for myself, and since then I've shown other people how to do it.

Another good trick was what he called the massacre of adverbs. You go
through your text and take out as many adverbs as possible. You can
drop them or you can replace the verb with a more precise one. 'He ran
quickly.' No, it's: 'He sprinted.' If you have a word processor, you
just use 'Find' on ell wye space ('ly ') and ell wye stop ('ly.').
This works. There are entire genres where people don't use these
techniques, you know. There's some minor character in fiction, I
forget the novel, but the character is a novelist and she writes
historical romances 'full of rapes and adverbs.' Imagine an Arthurian
fantasy novel with the fluff removed and the adverbs slaughtered. It
would more like Chandler than Mallory. 'That Morgan dame was fey.'
'Down these mean glades a knight must ride.'

As it happens, one of the books I read partly for pleasure and partly
for research for The Stone Canal in fact does read like a historical
novel written in the hard-boiled style. It's called Njal's Saga.
Here's how it begins: 'There was a man called Mord Fiddle, who was the
son of Sighvat the Red. Mord was a powerful chieftain, and lived at
Voll in the Rangriver plains. He was also a very experienced lawyer
[...]' The femme fatale of this saga is a woman called Hallgerd. Here
are the descriptions of her. At the beginning she is a little girl her
playing on the floor, and: 'she was a tall, beautiful child whose hair
hung down to her waist.' A little later:

'We now return to Hallgerd, Hoskuld's daughter, who had grown up to be
a woman of great beauty. She was very tall, which earned her the
nickname Long-Legs, and her lovely hair was now so long that it could
veil her whole body. She was impetuous and wilful.' Somehow that last
bit doesn't come as a surprise.

Later still, Gunnar meets her at the Althing:

'Hallgerd was wearing a red, richly-decorated tunic under a scarlet
cloak trimmed all the way down with lace. Her beautiful thick hair
flowed down over her bosom.' These six sentences are all the
description you'll get of her. And from them you quite understand why
two of her husbands have already been killed and why there are a lot
more men murdered before the story is over.

There are a lot of court scenes in Njal's Saga. That's what the
Icelanders did, by the way. Every so often they'd kill each other and
then they'd sue each other. There's one scene where they're about to
start killing each other in court, until somebody - obviously an
experienced lawyer - points that it's going to be far too expensive,
and everyone backs down. About two thirds of the way through the book
the whole of Iceland converts to Christianity. It slowly dawns on them
that it's OK to forgive people. You don't need to keep up all this
vengeance business. Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.
You can just see them thinking, 'Christ, what a relief.' Of course,
because it is a tragic tale, that happens too late. Towards the end
there is the most moving single line of dialogue I've ever read, but
you can find that for yourself. My advice to anyone here who is
writing fantasy is: walk past the shelves of fantasy trilogy bricks.
Head for the black Penguins. Steal from the best.

The research reason I had for reading Njal's Saga for was to steal the
legal system. The American libertarian writer David Friedman had held
up mediaeval Iceland as a model of anarcho-capitalism, and I took him
at his word. I sent him a copy of The Stone Canal, and when he read my
next book, The Cassini Division, he spotted an inconsistency in my
physics which no one else had noticed. So don't try to outrun an
economist. He may accelerate faster than you think.

My first four books were what I later called the Fall Revolution
books. They had as their theme the collapse of socialism and the
persistence of revolutionary politics and especially of obscure
revolutionary sects. When Andrew Greig had read the final one, The Sky
Road, he said, 'I'm all Fourth Internationaled out.'

I took the hint. I then wrote the three Engines of Light books - they
were meant to be a series but they ended up as a trilogy - and a
couple of stand-alone space operas, Newton's Wake and Learning the
World. Around about this time I started muttering about how we'd done
New Space Opera, and now maybe we should try New British Catastrophe.
My editor and my agent got wind of this and pointed out that
near-future political stuff and SF disguised as technothrillers were
doing very well in the charts, and if this time I promised to write
something like that with no obscure TLAs - which as you know stands
for Three Letter Abbreviations - for obscure political sects they
would be very happy for me to do it, so I did.


------------------
Curfew is over.
 
Posts: 16386 | Registered: January 15, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Nice idea for a thread.

In my case, writing is viral. Same goes for all the products of my fleeting creativity. I get these...externally-fuelled compulsions. Historically, the two examples that'll be most relevant to the regulars here who don't have me on ignore will be "Blurb It" and "Fanta Shokata". In each case, someone else posted something that triggered something awful in me, and I just played it to exhaustion. That's how it works, with me; I beat somebody else's idea to a dry, thoroughly-winnowed death. And then either I stand around waiting for someone to bring more wheat, or I slouch off to go looking for barley.

I can't "self-start" my imagination. It needs raw ingredients and a catalyst. That's why I've never had any pretensions to writing as a profession. I'd starve to death in a dark, unheated room.

But, thankfully, the catalysts can be absurdly small. A Greek chick's accent. Some Gaimanii chick's assertion that she eats houses. The premise that William Gibson is a mind-controlling charismatic cult leader in Bollywood cinema...

Oh, wait; that last one's mine.

Sorry.


 
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One page a day of finished manuscript will give you a book in a year, and a book a year ain't bad. Personally, I'm a binge writer, with intense periods of 10-20 pages a day interspersed with long periods of nothing at all. I don't do anything else. I don't teach, edit or have an honest job. I've done nothing but write for 30 years. The hard part about this is it's hard to blame nonproductivity on someone else. I know writers who produce under conditions that would be impossible to me. Writing is as much a matter of temperament as anything else.
 
Posts: 1511 | Location: Estancia, NM, USA | Registered: November 01, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Noirjyre:
I've been writing out my comic lately- Like a shirt story-
It's better for when I am coming down to the illustrating part- It helps me cut out the stuff that has no real value to the story-



That's exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm elaborating on one of my write something now bits and hopefully turn it into the next episode.


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Posts: 3682 | Location: Honolulu Hawaii | Registered: July 06, 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I remember when I was writing the first draft of Sweet Moonlight there were a few weeks of 700 to 1000 words a day. It seemed like a ridiculously fast pace.

That Ken MacLeod thing brought back another point for me: outlines. I don't do outlines. At least, I don't do them well. When I start trying to do an outline it never seems to lead to a story. I can't seem to sit down and say, "here is the structure of the story, point A and point Z, and how I will get between them." Instead, I usually just start at point A with some foggy idea of where I want to end up, and wander along, finding my way as I go. I have a feeling it's a bad habit, but I can't seem to get into outlines.

Oh, and the editing thing, the adverb hunt. Very good idea, I think. On the other hand, I think (perhaps wrongly) that my writing is reasonably sparse on the excess words, most of the time. I thought Ken's description of Njal's Saga was just fine-- the kind of writing I like to see. Most often I'm worried that I'm not writing enough, and that the story is progressing too quickly.


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Posts: 11836 | Location: Silicon Valley (not Japan) | Registered: May 28, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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They taught us outlines in high school. I thought they were a retarded idea even then, but I didn't win that argument with the teachers.

I still can't use them, simply because none of my stories are ever resolved when I begin writing them. Not even the two-sentence jobs in Short Short Stories.

My mouth utters sentences that haven't finished forming in my brain yet. My typing's much the same.


 
Posts: 4373 | Registered: May 25, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I love writing lyrical type prose.
Grant proposals, not so much, but the check at the end is nice.


As far as I'm concerned, I prefer silent vice to ostentatious virtue.
-Albert Einstein
 
Posts: 19200 | Location: my happy place. | Registered: February 17, 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I started writing in poetry-
I wanted to be one when I was in jr high-
Then I realized most of what I wrote in that form was too personal and i didn't want to let it out of my sight- I have books of it sitting on the self right now-

Outlines can kiss my butt-
I've tried and failed at them-

I had an english teacher my freshman year who tried to teach me outlines- I couldn't get them- In the end she told me that it was the shit she had to teach- And she often let me just hand in a finished short stories for the assignment- She had more concern about my horrible grammar-

Advice I gave a girlfriend of mine who is starting out in writing is- Just to figure out what you are going to write right now- If something else pops up toss it in there- If it doesn't work throw it out-
I gave her note cards for names-
In the past when I wanted to write novels, name lists kept me from mixing thing up


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Posts: 3449 | Location: Island closest to hell- | Registered: January 24, 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I have a lot of trouble thinking linearly, so
outlines are really difficult for me. I'll start
with one outline, decide it doesn't work halfway
through the project, then change it again, and
eventually end up with something strikingly
similar to the first outline.

Luckily, I don't need to do an outline too many
times. For the generic field reporting, I've
pretty much internalized the standard outline
and follow it without much thought. Of course, I
don't actually write any of my documents
linearly. I jump from section to section
depending on what I feel I have properly
internalized at the time, then go back and work
out the flow at the end.


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Posts: 6930 | Location: Oisoconsing | Registered: March 26, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Most of what I write, a bit opposed to MD above, has an in-built outline, as I usually have to present an abstract weeks or months before the actual deadline. And a title, which is usually the worst part of it, proposing a title before the piece is written. Even when the abstract is not necessary I make one anyway, just to clarify the expected content. Although that is less than a classic outline, to write a good abstract you need to have an outline in your mind.

That said, the actual writing, usually propelled by a looming deadline, is in my case quite fluid, as I usually have a clear idea of what I cannot say and an abstract fixing what has to be said. Of course, almost all is non-fiction, so it is more a matter of remembering noteworthy aspects than imagining them.

The nature of the beast, usually with recommended minimum and maximum size, makes me over-write, be verbose, and then prune down to size. Much easier than ballooning a brief article.

That can be seen in my writing style at the WGB, as I tend to write two types of posts, abstract mode and article mode. Just remember that for each post in abstract mode there is a potential huge post waiting on the wings.


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Posts: 3000 | Location: I am behind you | Registered: May 27, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Kinda want to do some fiction at some point (which probably means I never will), but most of my writing is academic. In a sense I'm in a 2 year slump when I've basically published no refereed journal articles... which is actually imperilling my career if I don't rememdy it soon. In that time, though, I'll have written one book, co-written three and published two book chapters. Applied for a heap of grants, and got one, too. Taught some courses, served on some committees, attended some conferences and too many meeting. It's just that under the current rules of academica in Australia those things don't really count.

I'm pretty blessed in that I find it easy to write papers fast. Sometimes they're research reports, but sometimes I'll be reading something and a couple of ideas or theoretical frameworks will bang together and strike sparks, and I'll knock off something theoretical in a couple of days. I think part of the block has been that I have a research study that is about 90% finished and want to publish it, but to finish it I need to do maybe 40 hours of video transcription and analysis, and it's tough to find a chunk of time to do that.

The last of the science textbooks should be submitted this week, so after that it's just proof-reading for that project and it'll be time to get back into publishing. I think the other part of the problem is not doing enough good academic reading lately to get those sparks happening.


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Posts: 12392 | Location: all up in ur netwurx | Registered: January 11, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Like MD, the writing is very 'electronic' and non-linear, always.


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Posts: 12392 | Location: all up in ur netwurx | Registered: January 11, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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i think one mistake that people are making with outlines is having the idea that once you have an outline it is set in stone. that, for me, shouldn't be the case.

i recognise the issues people are describing. i don't think naturally in outlines. i'm like MOM, i need something from the outside to trigger me. but, from what he said, i guess i am more consciously looking and seeking those triggers?

regardless. i tend to write something. a short piece, a fragment, which i'll post in "write something now", most often. then it'll expand in my head, and build if i am lucky. which is often why the pattern of some of my pieces might seem odd. but sometimes i'll have this random other idea. totally disconnected from the first. then the trick is to try and tie the two together.

thats when i start to get something growing and hope it will be bigger. and then thats when i can start think of outlines. but an outline is just a rough guide to keep track of what i think is happening. if what i think is happening isn't then the outline changes to the next thing i think is happening.

outlines are also useful because like a few folk have said, i don't think linearly. in my novel writing attempts i end up with a separate document per "chapter", and if i get stuck in one then i switch to another. so my writing/thinking can be all over the place. having an outline can help me keep track of that.

but, sometimes, the outline can be the very tool that closes the gap. if i have a character talking to Mr.X in chapter 2, and something happens to Mr.X in chapter 5, how does that affect the character in chapter 6? what does that character do? how does that character react/think? and in order to get to that point, what do i need to write? perhaps not the greatest example, but its a rough.

i've said it before, for me an idea builds from bullet points. that is my outline. as it goes on, those bullet points become paragraphs. and so on. though, the outline is always a thing seperate from the writing, so shouldn't be confused as something that keeps growing as a file until it is a novel.

those are my thoughts anyway.


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Posts: 16386 | Registered: January 15, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Psychophant:
The nature of the beast, usually with recommended minimum and maximum size, makes me over-write, be verbose, and then prune down to size. Much easier than ballooning a brief article.

That's typically my method of editing, too.

quote:
That can be seen in my writing style at the WGB, as I tend to write two types of posts, abstract mode and article mode.

I just ramble.


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Posts: 6930 | Location: Oisoconsing | Registered: March 26, 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravus:
In a sense I'm in a 2 year slump when I've basically published no refereed journal articles... which is actually imperilling my career if I don't rememdy it soon. In that time, though, I'll have written one book, co-written three and published two book chapters.

Is there a weighted difference between