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Or they'll irradiate Grant.
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Well, it does to an extent, as was said before. Maybe some fellow nerds are interested in an estimate, i.e. numbers. I slept during most of my nuclear physics-related courses (because it's terribly boring stuff), but if so much nerdism is concentrated here (and on such grizzly a topic), I don't want to stand aside, so I tried a crude estimate (!!!): In short: Since the old man probably wanted to make really sure that someone with a Geiger-counter checking the inside of the container gets "enough clicks to raise alarm", a guy on the immediate outside would approx. get 60%-70% (see below) of "enough clicks to raise alarm". If he goes further from the wall of the container, the number of "clicks" is reduced by the inverse square of the distance. So IMO, there is NO WAY to irradiate the INSIDE of the container (in the way described by Gibson) in such a way that detection is guaranteed when someone looks for it and on the other hand be reasonably sure that the radiation is NOT detected by accident (and I think they do sporadic checks for radiation in American ports.). The magnetic seals just keep the Caesium inside (which is also a moral imperative if you are not an complete asshole) and cover up the bullet holes. They could have higher absorption coefficients than the steel, but that would only affect the small patches that they cover. The reason being the absorption law for EM-radiation. To reduce the Gamma-radiation from Cs137 by 90%, you'ld need more than 3.5cm of steel (at least that's what I computed). I also stumbled across some chemical and physical properties of Caesium that may contribute to the "getting it inside the container" discussion: Seems to be very nasty stuff, even if its NOT radiating (see below). And it seems to be very hard to get rid of, due to its chemical properties (no expertise here). In long: 1) ------------------ Estimate: How much of the gamma radiation can the container walls shield? ------ If Caesium 137 decays, one of its neutrons becomes a proton and emits an electron ("beta -") and an electron-antineutrino. In 8% of the cases the 56_Barium^137 - groundstate is directly reached and the energy difference of 1.17MeV (Mega electron volts) is transfered to the electron (the beta-particle). In 92% of the cases, the resulting 56_Barium^137-atom is in an exited state and eventually goes to the ground state by emitting a photon (electromagnetic radiation) of high frequency (i.e. energy). I dug up a paper from the 50's where this energy was said to be 0.6614 MeV. The electron then only gets 0.51 MeV of the energy. (newer article, with picture  https://ces.karlsruhe.de/culm/physiktechnik/kernphysik/cs137.htm The linear absorption coefficient (mu) of iron is 0.655/cm, that of lead is 1.64/cm for EM-radiation at 0.5 MeV, a little lower than the one we have, so our mu is probably a bit lower, but I think good enough for an estimate. Say the initial intensity is I, the final one I_0, then I/I_0=exp(-mu*x), then the thickness of the steel needed to reduce the intensity (i.e. number of photons) by half would be ln(2)/mu=1.058 cm. ---------------------------------------------- - For steel of 3 millimeters, the intensity would be higher than 60% of that on the inside. - To reduce intensity by half, you'ld need 1 cm of steel. - To reduce intensity by a factor of ten, you'd need more than 3.5 centimeters of steel ... ----------------------------------------------- Now what does this means for the guy with the geiger counter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger_counter A Geiger counter counts decay events (if it is in a certain setting called Geiger Mueller range), i.e. one Cs137 decays, one (rather 0.92) photon gets emited, one click. So if you put one lucky bastard with a Geiger counter inside of said container and another one outside and if the walls are 3 milimeters thick, then the guy outside would get 63% of the clicks that the one on the inside gets. (Approximately, since the walls are probably thinner, the C137-Gamma radiation is higher in energy, which means less screening, the absorbtion coefficient is for iron and so forth). -------------------------------------------------- Since the old man probably wanted to make really sure that the guy on the inside gets "enough clicks to raise alarm", the guy on the immediate outside would approx. get 60%-70% of "enough clicks to raise alarm". If he goes further from the wall of the container, the number of "clicks" is reduced by the inverse square of the distance. So IMO, there is NO WAY to irradiate the INSIDE of the container in such a way that detection is guaranteed when someone looks for it and on the other hand make sure that the radiation is NOT detected by accident (and I think they do sporadic checks for radiation in American ports.). The magnetic seals just keep the Caesium inside (which is also a moral imperative if you are not an complete asshole) and cover up the bullet holes. They could have higher absorption coefficients than the steel, but that would only affect the small patches that they cover. -------------------------------------------------------- 2) ---------------------- How much of the Beta-radiation can the container walls shield ---------------- - Beta- 'radiation' (i.e. fast electrons) on the other hand can be shielded effectively. It can be shielded by aluminium (found no numbers for steel), even by plexiglass of certain strengths and would probably not leave the container in dangerous doses. 3) ---------------------------------- Tito ----------------------------- - Tito would be exposed to Gamma and Beta radiation for a short (!) time. Not healthy, but let's assume the risk is tolerable: "Like all radionuclides, exposure to radiation from cesium-137 results in increased risk of cancer. Everyone is exposed to very small amounts of cesium-137 in soil and water as a result of atmospheric fallout. Exposure to waste materials, from contaminated sites, or from nuclear accidents can result in cancer risks much higher than typical environmental exposures. If exposures are very high, serious burns, and even death, can result. Instances of such exposure are very rare. One example of a high-exposure situation would be the mishandling a strong industrial cesium-137 source. The magnitude of the health risk depends on exposure conditions. These include such factors as strength of the source, length of exposure, distance from the source, and whether there was shielding between you and the source (such as metal plating)." - The longer (!) he is exposed, the more gamma-radiation he absorbs, the more damage is done, most dangerous damage is to his DNA -> cancer risk grows. The dangerous thing, as far as I understand, is if he gets the Cs137 ON him or breathes it -> then the damage is done as long as it is near him or in him or until all Cs137 atoms have gone through their decay cycle (half-life of Cs137 is 30 years): "People may ingest cesium-137 with food and water, or may inhale it as dust. If cesium-137 enters the body, it is distributed fairly uniformly throughout the body's soft tissues, resulting in exposure of those tissues. Slightly higher concentrations of the metal are found in muscle, while slightly lower concentrations are found in bone and fat. Compared to some other radionuclides, cesium-137 remains in the body for a relatively short time. It is eliminated through the urine. Exposure to cesium-137 may also be external (that is, exposure to its gamma radiation from outside the body)." 4) ------------------- Cleaning the money ------------------------------- Caesium seems to be quite nasty in this respect, hard to get rid of the stuff (but maybe easier to get it out of the money?) in such a way that it doesn't get into the environment: "Cesium-137 undergoes radioactive decay with the emission of beta particles and relatively strong gamma radiation. Cesium-137 decays to barium-137m, a short-lived decay product, which in turn decays to a nonradioactive form of barium. The major dose from cesium-137 is from the barium-137. The half-life of cesium-137 is 30.17 years. Because of the chemical nature of cesium, it moves easily through the environment. This makes the cleanup of cesium-137 difficult." http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/understand/gamma.html http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/radionuclides/cesium.html -------------------------------------------------------- 5) ---------------------------------------------Getting the Cs inside the container ------------------------- To contribute to the Glocker-Discussion: - Other properties of caesium: one of the few metals that is fluid at body temperature (melts at 28 degrees celcius), it is the most reactive metal (it can burn spontanously if it gets contact to air, it will explode in water), maybe thats interesting for the glockers: Bullet hits wall, rips it open, bullet jacket rips open, part of kinetic energy gets transfered to the Caesium, heats it ... actually, I could imagine you wouldn't get a fine cloud of powder, but more of a spray or stream of Caesium -> some inkdots on the opposite wall? That is, if it doesn't ignite and burn the moeny, of course ... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been edited. Last edited by: Billy Billions, ------------------------------------------ - Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters -Rosa Luxemburg - "The lack of Empathy, the lack of Compassion" - William Gibson, when asked what he most disliked (Proust Questionnaire). |
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That was teh aweseom. Thnx!
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Impressive info, BB.
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A standard shipping container has walls which vary in thickness from about 1.5mm to 3.0mm (depends on the angle of the trapezoidal sections and the edge reinforcement). This should be enough to stop beta rays, but will have very little effect on gamma rays. See the previous discussion thread: Remington Silvertips and other Spook Country items The logical place to put radiation detectors at a container port or railway yard, would be on the container handling cranes and transporters, several metres or tens of metres away from any human workers. Caesium metal is a low melting point (28 C), highly reactive alkali metal, but the stuff inside the radio-therapy capsules inserted into the bullets, is almost certainly caesium chloride (melting point 645 C) i.e. radioactive salt. The caesium atoms remain radioactive whether they are in a pure elemental form or combined with non-radioactive atoms into less flammable or less volatile chemical compounds. The plot point of contaminating the money radioactively, must surely be to make it harder or impossible for the spooky conspirators to make it disappear without trace, when other Government agencies and the media start investigating, once the alarms have gone off. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Memetic Engineer, |
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Well, for 1.5mm 82% of gamma rad. intesity would go through the walls, provided the intensity formula I used is applicable.
Yup!
Thanks for the link, I like the thread, but didn't find anything quantitative on gamma radiation intensity there. Besides the direction of the question was slightly different there (see below).
Ok. Humans aren't necessary to hold the counters. Do you think they would be on the pieces that have immediate contact with the container hull? Or like some meters away? The formula just gives you an estimate for the intensity immediately outside the container. Intensity goes with the inverse square of the distance (strictly speaking this is accurate only for a point like radiation source, but again: estimate!)
No liquid cesium then. I suppose the "burning when exposed to air" will also not happen, due to the salt? BTW: I just found that cesium moves easily throgh the environment & I have very little chemical knowledge. Now I can imagine that this makes it difficult to prevent Cs137 that leaks into the environment from spreading further, but what does this mean for the "laundrability" of the money?
I agree. But the question was to: 1) make sense of the supposed ability of the magnetic seals to contain the radiation. -> It doesn't make much sense, other than preventing the cesium from getting out, which would increas gamma rad. a bit if the Cs stuck to the outside wall. (p.362: "... Aside from which, with them open, there was the possibility that a sensor in the facility would register the cesium"). 2) make sense of the paradox of having the container so higly irradiated that border guards get spooked (p.363: "Though we prefer the radiation to be detected at the border"), yet not high enough to alarm sensors in the port ( Again p.362, reference to sensors in the port.) This only makes sense if you tell the border guards to search the INSIDE of EVERY container that day (otherwise just give them the license plate and say there's a 100 million bucks inside?) and expect their Geiger counters to go berzerk the minute they open the container. What I say is: Either they go bezerk before, in the port, or the guards that look inside the container will just measure an increase of 20% to 40% with respect to a radiation intensity that did NOT alarm the sensors in the port (*). Wether this increase will make the guards jump (**), is another question, but I would say: One couldn't be sure of that and I can't picture the old man taking that risk? The other alternative would be to search EVERY truck that clicks a bit more than the rest. And every buck, if the truck escapes somehow ... So, IMO the line p.362: "... Aside from which, with them open, there was the possibility that a sensor in the facility would register the cesium" doesn't fit the Rest. -------------------- (*)Of course then they will also measure the increase in beta radiation, but that makes only 8% of decay events for Cs137. (**)It could be interesting to find out how much usual radiation intensity varies. I briefly read that e.g. south-german boars where quite heavily irradiated with respect to normal levels in Europe since Cs137 (?!) from the Tchernobyl accident got into their food chain. So one could expect that an increase from x to 2-3x would not raise concern, since it would be normal for the guards that Trucks from different parts of Canada and the US give different amounts of radiation. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Billy Billions, ------------------------------------------ - Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters -Rosa Luxemburg - "The lack of Empathy, the lack of Compassion" - William Gibson, when asked what he most disliked (Proust Questionnaire). |
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U.S. ARRIVALS FACE RADIATION CHECK
------- Birth, School, Work, Death |
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My assumption, for narrative porpoises, would be that any rad scanners they've got are directional in some sense, and that they monitor *arriving* cargo only.
So then, the container, full of bills, arrives, is scanned, clears, and then gets "infected" with the Cesium, but nobody checks out-going, already-cleared containers. So the container (because the scanners are at the end coming end of things, rather than near the out-going gates) is able to leave the port successfully, but will pass another radiation detector at the border. I would use the p. 362 line to mean that if the holes are not sealed you might have powdered stuff drifting around triggering alarms at the entry side of the port. That's the best excuse I can come up with. |
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Yeeeees, but, don't get me wrong: It's still a bit weak. The idea is good, but the weakness it wants to repair is pretty grave, IMO. There are directional sensors (see links below), but: - The cesium would be dispersed by the wind (if it blows around, don't know what rain/humidity would do to the cesiumchlorate), don't know how uniformly, certainly not just in one direction. And that would mean probably low intensities measured by the sensors, depending on the distance from sensors to container. - And then I could imagine that one would post sensors at points where most containers have to pass. I could imagine that in ports, those points are rather at the exists and not at the piers (which are probably greater in number and dimension than the exits.) Here's a link to a company that manufactures modern Gamma radiation sensors, I think those would be what Gareth and the old man had to face. http://www.laurussystems.com/mini_rad-d_gamma_pager.htm http://www.laurussystems.com/index.htm Here's a link explaining many terms used in the devices spec's http://www.nuclear.kth.se/diploma/Scintillation/scintdet.html The pager thing sees "black and white", it just gives intensity-reading, as far as I understand. (Imagine intensity as brightness and frequency/energy as colour.) Other sensors could be spectrometers, like the ICS4000. Contrary to the pager-thingy, those can see "in colour". The gamma-radiation from cesium is pretty monochromatic (much like a laser), since it stems from a excitation with defined energy. So if the spectrometer see's that frequency, it will say "Cs137, intensity such and such." They can be operated manually or automatically, with pre-programmend threshholds triggering alarms. Both types (pager/spectrometer) automatically adjust for background-radiation. In the specs it says that it also classifies the identified substance by use, e.g. discerns between stuff thats used in hospitals and stuff thats used in bombs. (If you are at a pedestrian crossing, looking for a guy with a dirty bomb, you probably don't want to jump the first poor sod who just had prostate cancer treatment, at least that's what my James Bond hat says). This message has been edited. Last edited by: Billy Billions, ------------------------------------------ - Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters -Rosa Luxemburg - "The lack of Empathy, the lack of Compassion" - William Gibson, when asked what he most disliked (Proust Questionnaire). |
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That is exactly what is already happening. You are forgetting the "just following orders" jobsworth nature of those who are employed at the sharp end of the "Must Be Seen To Be Doing Something", no matter how counterproductive, "War on Tourism". See this Reuters report from last year: ˜Hot' patients setting off dirty-bomb alarms
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This nearly made me pish me panties. "Now Sir, could you explain to me why my spiffy pager-form scintillator/photomultiplier goes 3ways bonkers when held to your crotch?" "Well, it's either gay or it confirms that I chose radiological treatment for my prostate cancer ..." This message has been edited. Last edited by: Billy Billions, ------------------------------------------ - Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters -Rosa Luxemburg - "The lack of Empathy, the lack of Compassion" - William Gibson, when asked what he most disliked (Proust Questionnaire). |
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The Dept. of Homemade Security makes me feel safe and well looked after. I like the way we have imported and remixed Victorian Era paternalism. We are awesome and not at all afraid of the future. |
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I declare this my 2008 favorite "deliberately misinterpring stupid hook lines" - phrase. ------------------------------------------ - Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters -Rosa Luxemburg - "The lack of Empathy, the lack of Compassion" - William Gibson, when asked what he most disliked (Proust Questionnaire). |
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