quote:

Brown is supposedly acting without authority, but apparently with an unlimited budget. Remember the shag-capreted private aircraft and the Georgetown townhouse? Besides, electronic intercepts can be sent anywhere to be translated. Even civilians would not burden themselves with a potential witness, not to mention add multiple kidnapping/assault/drug charges to any other possible felonies they might face. And that is just one example that happens not to be a spoiler.

LOL. If you think a single flight on a shag-carpeted private jet and one night’s use of a Georgetown townhouse constitute indicators of an unlimited budget, then maybe you should be working for Brown yourself. He seemed terribly impressed with those items, but I’m afraid that any real-deal operator would have a much grander notion of what constitutes an “unlimited budget.”

That said, no I’m not entirely pleased with the Brown and Milgrim bit. It certainly requires some suspension of disbelief. Being able to see those escapades through Milgrim’s eyes makes for more interesting reading. It does not make for a good counterintelligence operations manual. But it’s credible enough that a hack like Brown would do that; credible enough not to be a deal-breaker for me. But if the book just plain pisses you off, then sure, I can see where you’d choose not to suspend that disbelief.

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I don't think even SC implies one man pulled off the scheme. It actually suggests a large group of men, including an apparently foreign billionaire, very nearly a George Soros character in some aspects, was involved in the plot. Most of the problems experienced by all involved made little sense from a real world perspective.

This paragraph here shows that you barely paid attention when you read the book. Dipping into Milgrim’s stash, were we? I can only imagine the “apparently foreign billionaire” you refer to is Bigend. Seeing as how there are only about seven thousand references to the man being Belgian, I’m a little puzzled as to why you’d describe him as ‘apparently’ foreign. He’s ‘apparently’ foreign in the same way that Andre the Giant is ‘apparently’ large, and fire is ‘apparently’ hot. But more importantly, he wasn’t part of the scheme. You obviously can’t handle more than one plot line at once, so maybe you should just stay away from Gibson altogether. His books are never about just one thing. You’ll only become further confused.

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The "anti-military" aspect of the book is expressed in Brown's caricature, but also through the obvious political slant of the book. Certainly the other people here have had no problem picking up on which side of the bread Mr. Gibson likes his butter.

Ah. So you equate the military with the contractors, and the corrupt politicians and political appointees. See, after 33.5 years of up close and personal experience with the US military, I have seen no reason to equate such people with the military. But a lot of people make that mistake. It’s a stupid mistake. But most people are stupid. So there you go. Entirely understandable that you’d make that mistake.

quote:

As I said, I don't mind him criticizing the US Government or the Military Industrial Complex or Homeland Security, but it would be a better novel if these greedy corporate warmonger types were presented in at least a remotely realistic fashion, rather than being prone to random rages that inspire kamikaze attacks on Johnny Depp.

Random rages inspiring… wha?

quote:

I don't think "security" types would have much opinion on your point 1;

You are wrong. And in case you’re not sprechening my lingo, when I say “security types”, I don’t mean the guy in the blue shirt at your local Macy’s.

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military types in my experience can see the benefits of it.

Sure, some do. I don’t recall speaking for them on that point.

quote:

Point 2 can be debated as you say. Point 3, the unqualified people in authority, is a problem that has long been with us. So has the overreach of the federal gov't.

Sure. And the character of it has changed recently, with some rather noteworthy, headline-generating results. SC specifically addresses some of those new phenomena. If you don’t want to be bothered with what’s going on right now, then I recommend you stay away from Gibson for a while. Because he’s kind of got a hard-on for current events at the moment.

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I don't see evidence of Brown's employer working particularly cheap. We disagree on your other views regarding him, but obviously we interpret things differently.

He was either working cheap, or working stupid. That’s part of the problem (and also lucky for the rest of us) with many of the profit-seekers these days. They don’t know how to tell the difference between the truly skilled and Brown. The war in Iraq, the post-9/11 blitz on homeland security issues, and other factors have massively expanded demand for people with the kind of skills Brown no doubt sells himself as having. As such, the market is flooded with people with dubious credentials and there are few people out there who know how to recognize them for what they are.

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What exactly are the "brilliant pieces" in this novel? The locative art(at least the primary example in the book) is a slightly more modern take on the old Hollywood death tours that have been going on for twenty years there at least, perhaps longer. The idea has possibilities; even the wretched Tom Clancy could have made better use of it in the narrative. But instead it's just window dressing, other than one allusion to a dual-use formula or equation and the opportunity to throw in what seems to be an obligatory VR reference.

The locative art piece was not earth-shaking for me, either. Hey, it’s kind of interesting, and it’s a new and more immediately possible example of what Gibson’s been talking about for ages in different ways—the eversion of the virtual world/internet/what have you. But the locative art was (for me at least, and for Bigend, you know, the foreign guy) just a gateway to Chombo. There’s more there, regarding the future of cool-hunting and the potential impact of deep-pocketed, purely commercial entities getting involved in areas historically reserved for intelligence agencies, but since you had trouble just grasping the idea that Bigend is not American, I’ll leave that stuff aside here.

The most brilliant part of it for me was his conception of the Old Man. His ability to see straight through the monolithic image of the intelligence community propagated by popular culture, to imagine what factions might lie within and what sorts of clever things they might be doing to each other, and for what reasons, is great stuff. Especially if you’ve had the luxury to see/hear Gibson hold forth at greater length on some of the topics addressed by the Old Man here on his blog and in other places. Those little comments the Old Man makes, such as those about SERE, are just tips of icebergs.

To throw you a bone, I'll toss out my main reservation about the book. The implication that a)If the world needs saving, and b)if it gets saved, then c)it will be saved by Apple-equipped hipsters with complicated sneakers. But then, the Old Man broke that mold, so that's something.

with the popularity of gps devices lately coupled with the program on npr today discussing how locative information was the new hot market, i think Mr. G called it about a year in advance. Locative installations are happening.

And, might I add, Splitcoil, you're in fine form tonight.

l
m
a
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I love it when people hate the book so much that they have to post about it.

More precisely, I love it when they start in a civilized but negative tone, and when their true motivations become apparent later on.

quote:

Originally posted by Ruhmkorff:
Brown is supposedly acting without authority, but apparently with an unlimited budget. Remember the shag-capreted private aircraft and the Georgetown townhouse? Besides, electronic intercepts can be sent anywhere to be translated. Even civilians would not burden themselves with a potential witness, not to mention add multiple kidnapping/assault/drug charges to any other possible felonies they might face. And that is just one example that happens not to be a spoiler.

I had assumed the plane was loaned out by his patron. I'll grant that the posts could be transmitted electronically, but given what Brown is doing with Tito's electronic transmissions don't you think his own paranoia would lead him to avoid such a medium?

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Prince might be a Christian, possibly a zealot. He was a SEAL, which is fairly zealous of him. I don't think he worships any Christy God King.

In point of fact that is the definition of a Christian. Christ is the God-King. However that wasn't what I was getting at but rather his fundamentalist beliefs.

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I know your position is that I am criticizing the politics of the book, but what it appears I must actually point out to you is that the political view point of the novel is extremely shallow, the characters are cardboard cliché' cutouts lacking any dimension, and the entire plot is a shadowbox passion play where the good guys wear white hats and live happily ever after. It is not "Literature" by any stretch of imagination. It's a feel-good story, a Tom Clancy tale for progressives.

I thought we were debating Gibson's oeuvre as a whole as pertained to "literature." Nevertheless, the "white hatted" good guys don't get much done. A minor stick in the paw if you will. Tom Clancy and Gibson have virtually nothing in common, please support the comparison. If you can, do it in verse.

quote:

I will agree that compared to most modern writers, his prose is not extremely "turgid"; but I used the term earlier in reference to his pedantic explanations, not his overall writing ability. Compared to his earlier novels it seems he is almost spoonfeeding readers with his hip pocket classes on various topics, even ones he has no knowledge of himself. Remington, for example, does not make Silvertips. His reference to "Remington Silvertips" in the book is as jarring as having his character jump in a Ford Corvette and drive away.

No it isn't, most people neither know nor care what Remington makes. Your comparison is ridiculous. Aside from that you have yet to point out the glaring errors and the facticity to back them up. Not that it matters, it's fiction. I seriously doubt most readers have the same obsessive level of accuracy as a prerequisite for enjoying a novel. I don't know where you get the idea he explains things pedantically. Example?

quote:

Neuromancer could be considered "adolescent". I don't view it as great literature, but it was entertaining and didn't read as if it were written for slow leftist children.

Again, your politics cloud your ability to assess literature. It's rather expected given the reputation of neo-cons but it's still sad to see. You stay on message farther well though.

quote:

think even SC implies one man pulled off the scheme. It actually suggests a large group of men, including an apparently foreign billionaire, very nearly a George Soros character in some aspects, was involved in the plot. Most of the problems experienced by all involved made little sense from a real world perspective.

What doesn't make sense to you in a "real world" perspective? I might point out that if you are a neo-con your ability to assess "reality" is highly suspect to begin with.

quote:

McCarthy to Delillo if you want another example of a great author.

I'll agree with you there.

quote:

... see the question about my name being familiar; if it is, it is not deliberate. I've never been to this website before my first post and have no knowledge of anyone else who posts here.

Why did you pick that name?

quote:

The "anti-military" aspect of the book is expressed in Brown's caricature, but also through the obvious political slant of the book. Certainly the other people here have had no problem picking up on which side of the bread Mr. Gibson likes his butter.

It isn't anti=military it's anti-stupidity. At no point is Brown revealed or intimated to be military but rather a spook. The political slant of the book has nothing to do with the military and everything to do with the administration. The White House can't make the distinction either though.

quote:

As I said, I don't mind him criticizing the US Government or the Military Industrial Complex or Homeland Security, but it would be a better novel if these greedy corporate warmonger types were presented in at least a remotely realistic fashion, rather than being prone to random rages that inspire kamikaze attacks on Johnny Depp.

Brown isn't a greedy corporate warmonger type, he's a slavish drone wound too tight.

quote:

What exactly are the "brilliant pieces" in this novel? The locative art(at least the primary example in the book) is a slightly more modern take on the old Hollywood death tours that have been going on for twenty years there at least, perhaps longer. The idea has possibilities; even the wretched Tom Clancy could have made better use of it in the narrative. But instead it's just window dressing, other than one allusion to a dual-use formula or equation and the opportunity to throw in what seems to be an obligatory VR reference.

You completely miss the point. The locative art is endemic of what is eroding the power structures at play in the political aspects of the novel. Locative art has little to do with a Hollywood Death Tour and everything to do with reclaiming privatized space. The technology that allows it to happen was created by the military-industrial complex and now impinges on their ability to keep their secrets. Bobby is able to out them through the very use of this technology. The art is an expression of the desire of the street to reclaim its own. That's, at the end, what the book is about.

If you're going to keep comparing Gibson to Tom Clancy I think we'd all like some evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by ArkanGL:
I love it when people hate the book so much that they have to post about it.

More precisely, I love it when they start in a civilized but negative tone, and when their true motivations become apparent later on.

Does he want to make us neo-cons?

I'm glad he posted, it's a decent-ish debate.

quote:

quote:

Remington, for example, does not make Silvertips. His reference to "Remington Silvertips" in the book is as jarring as having his character jump in a Ford Corvette and drive away.

No it isn't, most people neither know nor care what Remington makes.

I don't even know what Silvertips are! A kind of bear? A hockey team? A recurve bow? If Remington is supposed to make them I guess it might be... an electric razor?

Again, personal knowledge of a specific detail the author got wrong. Maybe WG is more prone to this than others. I don't know. There wasn't any such thing as a black Buzz Rickson's MA-1 either, at least not until after Pattern Recognition came out.

No, I don't think the example is comparable. And even if someone did jump in a "Ford Corvette," I'd probably end up dismissing it as a silly detail, possibly even a joke, (or missing it entirely) and getting on with reading the book.

BTW, a quick google for "Remington silvertips" yields quite a crop of results. I don't remember the usage of the term in the book, and I'm only an aficionado of rifles intended to kill people, not deer, so take this with a grain of salt. But in common usage, it appears as though the 'Remington' bit is part of the caliber designation (25-06 Remington, for instance), and silvertip refers to a particular type of ammunition. "Silvertip" is used very prominently in the designations of many types of Winchester rifle ammo, but I also found many references to it in regard to military ammunition. Perhaps a round that emphasizes penetration over stopping power, judging from the few references I looked over.

So even if Remington doesn't make silvertips, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the reference, depending on context. After all, I've shot plenty of .40 S&W that was neither made by S&W nor fired through an S&W, and plenty of .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) that was neither made by Colt nor fired through a Colt pistol.

Even if it does invalidate the reference, it doesn't particularly bother me. It's fairly arcane. I don't know if anyone makes pointy-toed Chuck Taylors. Don't really care about that, either.

They're Keds-type, and I've seen them. Pointy-toed Chucks would be weird.

If I was still in Japan I could find a picture of the pointy-toed Converse-clones in five seconds, they were really popular. Dang. I'm googling now, but it's tricky.

Might be the best I can do. This is not what I was thinking of but it's similar. By Red or Dead:

quote:

Does he want to make us neo-cons?

I don't think so.
The way I see it, he/she just wants to diss the book as loudly as he/she can.
But before that became apparent, there was a layer of civility and slight self-doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by theminx:
They're Keds-type, and I've seen them. Pointy-toed Chucks would be weird.

I imagine them looking like these Comme des Garcons sneakers which are constructed inside out (or are the sneakers everting?)



I saw some other pointy toed sneakers recently in a Copenhagen store as well.

bobbychombokicks.jpg (28 Kb, 94 downloads)

quote:

Originally posted by IndividualFrog:
If I was still in Japan I could find a picture of the pointy-toed Converse-clones in five seconds, they were really popular. Dang. I'm googling now, but it's tricky.

[Bobby Chombo] was wearing an electrically green Lacoste polo shirt, narrow white jeans, and a pair of rubber-soled black canvas sneakers with peculiarly long, sharply pointed toes.

(I can't find a pic with all-black ones, and these aren't even as pointy as the ones I'm thinking of, like real brothel-creepers)

Leningrad Cowboys sneakers!

FaPo, I'm googling these things all over, and all I can think of is how I'd be tripping in them LOL

Haven't had that much trouble so far responding in paragraphs but there are getting to be a lot of people and comments and I'm a little short on time, so I'll go the quote route. If I fail to respond to a significant point made by any other poster, just remind me.

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LOL. If you think a single flight on a shag-carpeted private jet and one night’s use of a Georgetown townhouse constitute indicators of an unlimited budget, then maybe you should be working for Brown yourself. He seemed terribly impressed with those items, but I’m afraid that any real-deal operator would have a much grander notion of what constitutes an “unlimited budget.”

No real-deal operator would kidnap and supply drugs for an interpreter, and forwarding ELINT for translation is small change indeed compared to the price of hiring Brown, his associates, a jet, and a townhouse. And any operator who gets a shag jet and townhouse is living high on the hog.

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That said, no I’m not entirely pleased with the Brown and Milgrim bit. It certainly requires some suspension of disbelief. Being able to see those escapades through Milgrim’s eyes makes for more interesting reading. It does not make for a good counterintelligence operations manual. But it’s credible enough that a hack like Brown would do that; credible enough not to be a deal-breaker for me. But if the book just plain pisses you off, then sure, I can see where you’d choose not to suspend that disbelief.

I've no problem with willing suspension of disbelief; certainly Gibson has achieved it in other novels. He did a pretty good job of establishing a coherent milieu with his sci-fi, but he doesn't manage it at all in SC, at least as it pertains to people at all familiar with the real world. Kidnapping Milgrim is pointless and foolish, and no one would prefer a kidnapped drug addict as company 24/7 over forwarding a few foreign words for translation. It wouldn't even be up to him, but to his superiors who give him the orders; are they supposed to be as stupid as he is as well? You think they want him dragging a druggie and a pocketful of CDS all over NY? Especially since none of the translating is ever actually of any importance. And the DGI agents, with their outstanding systema, do not even use any crypto systema. Yes, we know they want to be "caught", and go to absurd and dangerous lengths to be have their intel "intercepted", but no one on Brown's side is suspicious at the lack of crypto either.

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This paragraph here shows that you barely paid attention when you read the book. Dipping into Milgrim’s stash, were we? I can only imagine the “apparently foreign billionaire” you refer to is Bigend. Seeing as how there are only about seven thousand references to the man being Belgian, I’m a little puzzled as to why you’d describe him as ‘apparently’ foreign. He’s ‘apparently’ foreign in the same way that Andre the Giant is ‘apparently’ large, and fire is ‘apparently’ hot. But more importantly, he wasn’t part of the scheme. You obviously can’t handle more than one plot line at once, so maybe you should just stay away from Gibson altogether. His books are never about just one thing. You’ll only become further confused.

I tend to more caution than some here when drawing inferences; in the book Bigend is "apparently foreign", as I stated, and though his nationality was Belgian, Soros is not, and I was comparing the two.

I used "aparently" because I didn't recall a specific statement of Bigend's nationality in the god-like authorial voice, merely speculation and comments from characters in the novel. I no longer have the book here, so I can't check.

Bigend's interested in locating the money, and he isn't locating it on behalf of the "old man". So he is part of the plot or a third party. I think he told the rockstar reporter he knew of the money from the "pirates"; I took that to be a cover story; might have been true. I actually saw him as a sort of Onassis figure that was involved either from the start for his banking ties (to launder the money) or brought in by the architects of the plot after the container began having "difficulties" (to find the money). I put "Soros" in there to tweak your buddy since he was doing a Gibson and tossing in a few real world names for flavor.

If you want to explain the true plotline of Bigend, I'd be interested to hear it. Could be I missed something.

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Ah. So you equate the military with the contractors, and the corrupt politicians and political appointees. See, after 33.5 years of up close and personal experience with the US military, I have seen no reason to equate such people with the military.

No, I was going on the general impression conveyed in the book of liberal bias. I don't think Bush is ever mentioned by name either, but I can certainly tell Gibson's opinion of him. There are enough comments littered throughout the book that as soon as I disagreed on here that SC is "Literature", it was suggested that I read Bill O'Reilly, I was a neocon, and worship a Christy God King. More than one poster here suggests I hate the book due to ideological incompatability, and it's easy enough to see why. I can certainly agree with them that this book is political and one-sided in its polemicism.

If you have 33.5 years experience with the US military, you're well aware of which side of that divide most military fall on.

I can't recall Gibson's specific rant on phosphate finishes (he calls it "gray green" and puts the views in Milgrim's mouth I believe) but he seemed to be quite irked about uniforms and anti-glare rust-resitance in particular, and indirectly implied it was a sympton of the ignorant military/police culture as a whole.

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But a lot of people make that mistake. It’s a stupid mistake. But most people are stupid. So there you go. Entirely understandable that you’d make that mistake.

Yes, this is exactly the attitude I castigate Gibson for showing in this novel. I do not assume other people are stupid.

quote:

Random rages inspiring… wha?

Tito is described multiple times as resembling "Johnny Depp", and Brown, at one point sees Tito, goes into a rage, and tries to drive into him. Like a kamikaze. (Were I Gibson, I would assume you are stupid and explain to you at this point what a kamikaze is).

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You are wrong. And in case you’re not sprechening my lingo, when I say “security types”, I don’t mean the guy in the blue shirt at your local Macy’s.

Ich kann ein bisschen sprechen. If the "security types" have a problem with Blackwater, it's their own fault. Sie sprechen meine lingo nicht.

quote:

Sure, some do. I don’t recall speaking for them on that point.

Your words were "Things the book (and Gibson in general these days) obviously rail against are: 1) the results of privatizing traditional military roles"
and
"Many military and security types agree with him on 1"

But if you've changed your stance on that to be consonant with my own, I don't object.

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Sure. And the character of it has changed recently, with some rather noteworthy, headline-generating results. SC specifically addresses some of those new phenomena. If you don’t want to be bothered with what’s going on right now, then I recommend you stay away from Gibson for a while. Because he’s kind of got a hard-on for current events at the moment.

If I want current events, novels aren't the place to get the most current. I don't mind someone writing about contemporary society, if they know what they are talking about and construct an entertaining and coherent narrative.

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He was either working cheap, or working stupid. That’s part of the problem (and also lucky for the rest of us) with many of the profit-seekers these days. They don’t know how to tell the difference between the truly skilled and Brown. The war in Iraq, the post-9/11 blitz on homeland security issues, and other factors have massively expanded demand for people with the kind of skills Brown no doubt sells himself as having. As such, the market is flooded with people with dubious credentials and there are few people out there who know how to recognize them for what they are.

Anyone who has served four or more years in the military, at least in combat arms, can interpret the details of a DD214 well enough to get a pretty good idea of the individual inside it. The "old man" of SC can size folks up in a split second.

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The locative art piece was not earth-shaking for me, either. Hey, it’s kind of interesting, and it’s a new and more immediately possible example of what Gibson’s been talking about for ages in different ways—the eversion of the virtual world/internet/what have you. But the locative art was (for me at least, and for Bigend, you know, the foreign guy) just a gateway to Chombo. There’s more there, regarding the future of cool-hunting and the potential impact of deep-pocketed, purely commercial entities getting involved in areas historically reserved for intelligence agencies, but since you had trouble just grasping the idea that Bigend is not American, I’ll leave that stuff aside here.

You don't embrace the literary concept of "unreliable narrators " as much as I do, but at least you agree the VR is there, as I said, because it is something Gibson writes about, not because it is essential to the plot. Even Chombo was pretty much incidental, and his formula, which seemed quite promising, was never mentioned again.

I do agree with you that some of the topics touched upon incidentally in the book would have been quite interesting. Gibson probably could have made a very enthralling story had he focused on the utilization of modern tech in an unforeseen and/or speculative manner. That's the book I thought I was buying, to be honest.

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The most brilliant part of it for me was his conception of the Old Man. His ability to see straight through the monolithic image of the intelligence community propagated by popular culture, to imagine what factions might lie within and what sorts of clever things they might be doing to each other, and for what reasons, is great stuff. Especially if you’ve had the luxury to see/hear Gibson hold forth at greater length on some of the topics addressed by the Old Man here on his blog and in other places. Those little comments the Old Man makes, such as those about SERE, are just tips of icebergs.

I've not read his blog or seen him speak, so perhaps you understand why I didn't find the novel as brilliant as you did. I wish Cormac McCarthy had a blog.

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To throw you a bone, I'll toss out my main reservation about the book. The implication that a)If the world needs saving, and b)if it gets saved, then c)it will be saved by Apple-equipped hipsters with complicated sneakers. But then, the Old Man broke that mold, so that's something.

Yes, that's essentially my point about the Base jumpers. The "old man", being "wise" recognizes that the cool kids are his best hope though, and he, by choosing to use them, essentially validates them with his official seal of approval. Although, to Gibson's credit, they didn't "save the world" just aggravated some folks, that's one cliche he avoided. But then that makes me bitch about an anticlimactic ending. I ain't ever satisfied.

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with the popularity of gps devices lately coupled with the program on npr today discussing how locative information was the new hot market, i think Mr. G called it about a year in advance. Locative installations are happening.

Can't say the dead celeb thing impresses me much, but it would probably be a money maker in Hollywood. Don't think there's enough random dead celebs anywhere else to be profitable. Civil War battles would be interesting, though, and Dealey Plaza. I didn't know anyone actually listened to NPR.

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I love it when people hate the book so much that they have to post about it.

No lie, it's been a hell of a lot more entertaining reading everyone's posts on it than reading the book.

quote:

More precisely, I love it when they start in a civilized but negative tone, and when their true motivations become apparent later on.

Here's the very first sentence I posted; I think my "true purpose" is as transparently obvious as Gibson's in SC.

"Gibson is fairly clever at times, in books other than Spook Country, but he is certainly not writing "Literature" either, by any stretch of the imagination. The "scale of ideas" covered in SC never rises above the sort of reflexive cant expressed on the DU forum and similar venues."

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I had assumed the plane was loaned out by his patron. I'll grant that the posts could be transmitted electronically, but given what Brown is doing with Tito's electronic transmissions don't you think his own paranoia would lead him to avoid such a medium?

No, I'd be much more paranoid about having a hostage and illegal drugs on me.

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In point of fact that is the definition of a Christian. Christ is the God-King. However that wasn't what I was getting at but rather his fundamentalist beliefs.

I think we can agree there's a difference in connotaion between "people led by a Christy God King" and "Christians" or "Messiah".

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I thought we were debating Gibson's oeuvre as a whole as pertained to "literature." Nevertheless, the "white hatted" good guys don't get much done. A minor stick in the paw if you will. Tom Clancy and Gibson have virtually nothing in common, please support the comparison. If you can, do it in verse.

The white hat's win is minor but symbolic. Gibson's writing, next to Clancy's is finer, but as vitriolic. I don't want to be a winer at least not the kind that's non-alcoholic.

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No it isn't, most people neither know nor care what Remington makes.

Looks as if you hang with different people.

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Your comparison is ridiculous. Aside from that you have yet to point out the glaring errors and the facticity to back them up. Not that it matters, it's fiction. I seriously doubt most readers have the same obsessive level of accuracy as a prerequisite for enjoying a novel. I don't know where you get the idea he explains things pedantically. Example?

I've pointed out quite a number of things. And, as mentioned earlier, willing suspension of disbelief is predicated upon creation of a milieu in which the underlying details strike a chord of authenticity rather than a jarring, clangorous note of falsity. It would be an egregious error in a romance novel, but if you can't get your tech right in a techno thriller, you've really got problems.

Do you really think reading about a Chrysler Nova, or AMD Pentium IV, or Washington Cowboys football jersey would not pull the reader out of the story?

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Again, your politics cloud your ability to assess literature. It's rather expected given the reputation of neo-cons but it's still sad to see. You stay on message farther well though.

Someone here posted that Gibson said Neuromancer was "adolescent". Don't recall if it was you, but that's why I used the term. Either way, it has no bearing on my politics, and I thought it was a decent book. And props back at you for staying on message about "neo-cons".

quote:

What doesn't make sense to you in a "real world" perspective? I might point out that if you are a neo-con your ability to assess "reality" is highly suspect to begin with.

Kamikazes, kidnapping, keds with pointy toes. Well, the last one might be due to my inability to see reality because I'm a neocon.

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Why did you pick that name?

"Uberdog" was already taken.

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It isn't anti=military it's anti-stupidity. At no point is Brown revealed or intimated to be military but rather a spook. The political slant of the book has nothing to do with the military and everything to do with the administration. The White House can't make the distinction either though.

Not just the White House. Cindy Sheehan, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Hillary, quite a few people on both sides tend to conflate "the US", "the US military", "the US gov't" and "the White House". So does Gibson, to an extent, in SC. So do I. Sometimes it is warranted, sometimes not.

If Brown were actually a former intelligence operative, I don't think he would be referred to as a "Blackwater type", but it's just my opinion.

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Brown isn't a greedy corporate warmonger type, he's a slavish drone wound too tight.

Employed, we must assume, by the greedy corporate warmongers. But I agree he is a "slavish drone"; all the bad guys are, which makes for a dull read.

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You completely miss the point. The locative art is endemic of what is eroding the power structures at play in the political aspects of the novel. Locative art has little to do with a Hollywood Death Tour and everything to do with reclaiming privatized space.

That's a very interesting point and I wish there were more in the novel to support it. Or maybe I wish there were more I had grasped; I don't think there was much explanation of Bobby's tracking method, as I alluded earlier.

I'm not a computer guy but I think the internet is becoming much more restrictive, rather than less. Though perhaps you don't refer to the internet in your term "privatized space". Even "private space" is far, far less private now due to cell phone tech and vidso camera surveillance especially. I realize I might not be fully grokking you here on this idea and I apologize.

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The technology that allows it to happen was created by the military-industrial complex and now impinges on their ability to keep their secrets. Bobby is able to out them through the very use of this technology. The art is an expression of the desire of the street to reclaim its own. That's, at the end, what the book is about.

I don't see viewing holographic projections as a way to "reclaim" the streets. I'm assuming you are viewing the CONEX box as a metaphor for "secrets", but I don't get that theme from the novel. Not saying it isn't there, just that I don't read it that way, and I admit the inability might reflect my own limitations. But an interesting thought.

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If you're going to keep comparing Gibson to Tom Clancy I think we'd all like some evidence.

Clancy's political viewpoints are glaringly obvious in his books, and, in SC, so are Gibson's. You even said "neo-cons hate SC with good reason".

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Does he want to make us neo-cons?

No. I came for your women.

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I'm glad he posted, it's a decent-ish debate.

Yes, though it could use more cowbell.

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I don't even know what Silvertips are! A kind of bear? A hockey team? A recurve bow? If Remington is supposed to make them I guess it might be... an electric razor?

Remington and Winchester are brands of ammo as well as rifles and shotguns, although (short version)Winchester arms went under a while back though Winchester ammo is still going well. The premier Winchester rifle ammo for the past 30 years or so has been the Silvertip and lately they've been licensing Nosler to make component Silvertips. Remington is the main competitor and that company's premium rifle ammo has been the Core-lokt the past 30 years or so.

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No, I don't think the example is comparable. And even if someone did jump in a "Ford Corvette," I'd probably end up dismissing it as a silly detail, possibly even a joke, (or missing it entirely) and getting on with reading the book.

It's the focus of the action that the plot has been leading to the entire book, not just a random background detail. I don't think the cesium capsule idea would work, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

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BTW, a quick google for "Remington silvertips" yields quite a crop of results. I don't remember the usage of the term in the book, and I'm only an aficionado of rifles intended to kill people, not deer, so take this with a grain of salt. But in common usage, it appears as though the 'Remington' bit is part of the caliber designation (25-06 Remington, for instance), and silvertip refers to a particular type of ammunition. "Silvertip" is used very prominently in the designations of many types of Winchester rifle ammo, but I also found many references to it in regard to military ammunition. Perhaps a round that emphasizes penetration over stopping power, judging from the few references I looked over.

"Remington Silvertip" refers to ammo in the book. The actual Silvertips are designed for expansion. He uses a .30 cal rifle with a 1/10 twist, by the description a custom-built rig but not a tactical rifle. Probably .300 WM or one of the other mags, maybe 7.62N or 30-06.

In the military I've seen ball .50 BMG and 7.62N with silver tips but it's not common practice to refer to them that way since they aren't silver for a particular reason, the way green or black means AP or orange means tracer.

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So even if Remington doesn't make silvertips, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the reference, depending on context. After all, I've shot plenty of .40 S&W that was neither made by S&W nor fired through an S&W, and plenty of .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) that was neither made by Colt nor fired through a Colt pistol.

Even if it does invalidate the reference, it doesn't particularly bother me. It's fairly arcane. I don't know if anyone makes pointy-toed Chuck Taylors. Don't really care about that, either.

It's not exactly arcane, certainly less so than the twist rate. It's something you can see in a Wal Mart.

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I don't think so.
The way I see it, he/she just wants to diss the book as loudly as he/she can.
But before that became apparent, there was a layer of civility and slight self-doubt.

I still don't claim to have all the answers, but I was definitely blind-sided by the tone, theme and style of the story. In a way, it's complimentary that I was expecting more from the author, and I still feel he dumbed things down to reach a wider audience. I even think Inchmale's rationalization of "selling out" at the end is a tacit admission of it on Gibson's part.