It seems to me that there is a thematic thread running taught through Tito and Milgrim. That thread is one of reflexive action. I have taken two examples from the text, though they are not the only, and quoted them below.

His hand, in the pocket of the Jos. A. Banks jacket, decided to pop a Rize out of its bubble. He didn’t entirely approve, but then had to dry swallow it, as he didn’t like loose tablets. He saw painted lines of a pedestrian crossing, just as the light changed, and crossed with his gaze fixed on the jaunt little illuminated pictoglyph on the far side.

He walked uphill, then, the hooting of the wounded Taurus fading behind him.

Here, Milgrim has come, once again, to view his addiction as not merely something reflexive but also external. His had makes descions before the mind. His “selfhood” is circumscribed by the same lines as the crosswalk, by the same triggers as the “jaunty little man.”

Then, only two pages later, we have moved back to Tito.

Oshosi, scout and hunter, had entered Tito in mid-backtuck. He heard the gray car strike the lamppost as his black Addidas found the sidewalk, confusing cause and effect. The orisha propelled him immediately forward, then, like a child walking a doll, making a puppet of its limbs. Oshosi was huge in his head, an expanding bubble forcing him against the gray interior of his skull. He wanted to scream but Oshosi clamped fingers of cold damp wood around his throat.

Again, what one might take as volitional action is attributed instead to an outside agent. In this case a Santeria deity. Indeed, cause and effect have become blurred and we now see that human action may not in fact be the willful decision we suppose it is. But what then?

Are we merely “chemical entities” in this Gibsonian world? Or do other agents, other memes, if you will, come to infect the brains of these protagonist and propel them forward for good or ill?

Is it a biological circuitry or a Julian James type “god-in-the-head?”

In either event it is clear that Gibson wants to underscore the proposition of reflexive action. We might see the whole book, in fact, as a take on the reflexive action of America post 9/11.

Any thoughts?

I think Milgrim has just externalized his addiction to avoid taking blame for his actions, and from the effects of Lorazepam may well be an effect of the drug itself. That way he displaces the blame for any act he disapproves to the drug itself.

There may be a bit of blame displacement also in the case of Tito (the family surely has had at times done terrible things, or has to be ready to do them), as when it is Eleggua who fires the Bulgar's gun, rather than him. However in his case it appears rather as a way to manifest and internalize rather than externalize the effects of deep training and body memory. A training so complete that it has to bypass the conscious for most of the actions to be faster and more encompassing. Anyone who has practised a quick reactions sport with some intensity will have experienced something similar, when you reach your concentration focus and suddenly you ride the reactions rather than the reactions being controlled by you. The orishas are how Tito focuses and sharpens his concentration, while lettng Tito in control.

Konrad did something similar, but in his case it was the Way what guided his actions when focused. So I would not say it is new in Gibson's writing. He had never written so much about how it feels, however.

America as a country may feel they are reacting without thinking, but the ones at the top certainly had a plan, quite a lot of them, and they are not acting reflexively. Having a plan does not mean the plan is any good, however.

Well, I can see your points, but I disagree. I'm coming from a perspective in which the self is what Daniel Dennet calls, "A benign user illsuion" though I might omit the benign part.

In No Maps For These Territories, Gibson referenced humans as being, at some point, a chemical entity. That, coupled with the memtic focus of PR and the reflexive actions of some characters led me to wonder whether or not he sees free will as a kind of illsuion. Or is it so merely for the fanatic, the addict, et. al?

I don't know, maybe I'll get a chance to ask him tomorrow.

I think that, while all the theories advanced are potentially valid, even probably so, I think the prime reason you see these things is to invoke a sense of wonder, of supernaturalism, or semi-supernaturalism, a touch of miracle in a way that tidies up after itself.

In Neuromancer, way back when, there was a ninja type who was blind but still virtually inescapable.

As for the illusion of Free Will: I think that if Free Will is illusory, it is such a daunting, even invincible, yea, *real* illusion, that it is as real as anything.

A convincing example of the sufficiently convincing deception of Free Will as an illusion is that we regularly question its validity.

Imagine somehow turning oneself into an entirely program-bound robot in order to prove to oneself one had the Free Will it took to do such a thing.

'PLease don't throw me into that briar patch!'

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kenmeer livermaile,

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We might see the whole book, in fact, as a take on the reflexive action of America post 9/11.

Which, indeed, it probably is, but I should hope we wouldn't see it as such, just as I should hope we wouldn't see Romeo & Juliet as a take on the folly of rival families.

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Imagine somehow turning oneself into an entirely program-bound robot in order to prove to oneself one had the Free Will it took to do such a thing.

This reminds me of Descartes.

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This reminds me of Descartes.

You're cruel. Just kidding. I dig Descartes. Pictures of him show us what Zappa would look like had he lived into his 60s.

Imagine the robot convincing you that its state was a product of its Free Will. 'Really! I did this to myself!'

I suppose the inversion of this gives hope to the concept of AI?

I think that AI would come, if it comes at all, from a sufficiently complex system, given certain guidelines and somehow left to evolve.

As to this thread I made, Gibson told me he had no conscious intent toward my theory but that he often finds that people say things about a given book of his and then he can see that therein.

What he was thinkinh as pertains to this thread was that, and I paraphrase, "Milgrim, I wanted him to be taking so much Ativan that he was almost always close to blacking out. Tito, I saw him as having his own faith based iniative."

quote:

Tito, I saw him as having his own faith based initative."

Incurably clever, he is.

Taking my avatar image, and rendering forward:

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/His-Master-s-Voice-Posters_i381533_.htm

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Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Taking my avatar image, and rendering forward:

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/His-Master-s-Voice-Posters_i381533_.htm

Ha! I totally felt like that today. Gibson is as close as I have to a hero I think. But really....

"We don't need another hero! We just need to find our way home!"

I can't imagine having someone sign their book for me, or signing my book (assuming I had one) for others, in a queue setting.

But if I were to step up in line and have Gib sign a book, I'd be smartass and ask him to sign it 'Neal Stephenson -- RIP'.

Incidentallly, the way I decided upon that image as avatar was by initially searching images of 'victrola', in reference to Gib's old statement about how Victorian and clunky the actual innards of a PC are: the hard drive as a glorified vinyl record.

His Master's Voice completed the circuit nicely, I thought.

I thought it might have to do with Victorian "innards" or with Gibson's observation about the priest who geard the recorded voice back toward the beginning of the century and thought it a voice from beyond the grave. It really spooked the priest.

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I thought it might have to do with Victorian "innards" or with Gibson's observation about the priest who geard the recorded voice back toward the beginning of the century and thought it a voice from beyond the grave. It really spooked the priest.

That's funny. Makes sense, though. The magical recording is now 'going backward', 'rending the veil', et cetera.

While I despise 95% of 'steampunk' (not because I dislike the premise but it seems to attract hacks, this intrigues me as a root for a short story, more a Borgesian vignette, really.

Oh. I interjected reverse-play where none was stated.

*burp*

Seems to be an old riff w/ Gib:

"In the instant of putting Gunhead through the Schonbrunn's locked-and-armed Benedict Canyon gate, Rydell had experienced a fleeting awareness of something very high, very pure, and quite clinically empty; the doing of the thing; that weird adrenal exultation and the losing of every more troublesome aspect of self."

Cruising With Gunhead, VIRTUAL LIGHT, published 1993, allegedly set in 2005

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kenmeer livermaile,

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Seems to be an old riff w/ Gib:

"In the instant of putting Gunhead through the Schonbrunn's locked-and-armed Benedict Canyon gate, Rydell had experienced a fleeting awareness of something very high, very pure, and quite clinically empty; the doing of the thing; that weird adrenal exultation and the losing of every more troublesome aspect of self."

Cruising With Gunhead, VIRTUAL LIGHT, published 1993, allegedly set in 2005

Yeah, and Case had a whole autopilot thing going on as well. there are times when Gibson's characters lose their mind to the will of their bodies. As I suppose anyone does.