I don't have the novel in front of me, but Tito and his brother are discussing the old man. Tito's brother talks about a civil war being waged in America, a cold one.

Like the Cold War itself this civil war is waged below the surface, in spook country, over—presumably—the idea that terrorism & wartime does not mean the end of accountability & democracy.

It appears that it's between the people who were actually in the Cold War (the grown-ups), and their allies, and the current monumentally screwed up American intelligence community.

The lesson the grown-ups take away from wartime is that to lose liberty, is to lose the war (see also our timeline's Israelis). The lesson the people in charge take away from wartime is that it's a great way to impose control.

So where does it go?

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Like the Cold War itself this civil war is waged below the surface, in spook country, over—presumably—the idea that terrorism & wartime does not mean the end of accountability & democracy.

Alas, the partisans on each side of a civil war rarely even agree completely among themselves on what they're fighting for. The old man's allies might very well be made up primarily of people who are simply offended at their profession being taken over by profit-seeking, incompetent meddlers. Just as a doctor might be offended at a janitor hijacking his diagnosis, an experienced and highly trained intelligence officer might be offended at taking orders from a flock of inexperienced, wealthy campaign donors who get their training from watching bad television and their motivation from the pulpit.

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Originally posted by Splitcoil:

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Like the Cold War itself this civil war is waged below the surface, in spook country, over—presumably—the idea that terrorism & wartime does not mean the end of accountability & democracy.

Alas, the partisans on each side of a civil war rarely even agree completely among themselves on what they're fighting for. The old man's allies might very well be made up primarily of people who are simply offended at their profession being taken over by profit-seeking, incompetent meddlers. Just as a doctor might be offended at a janitor hijacking his diagnosis, an experienced and highly trained intelligence officer might be offended at taking orders from a flock of inexperienced, wealthy campaign donors who get their training from watching bad television and their motivation from the pulpit.

I betting there are a bunch of pissed of feds who got their toes stepped on by the Department of Homeland Security.

I've been thinking a *lot* about this concept. A cold civil war. But in the end, I think it's ultimately disconnected from reality. To have a civil war, each side needs to represent some substantial portion of the population. Looking at the US? Not so much.

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Originally posted by SuiJuris:
I've been thinking a *lot* about this concept. A cold civil war. But in the end, I think it's ultimately disconnected from reality. To have a civil war, each side needs to represent some substantial portion of the population. Looking at the US? Not so much.

Are you consciously mocking Iraqi war apologists?

Not consciously.

(Not that I'd pass up an opportunity to do so, of course . . .)

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current monumentally screwed up American intelligence community.

Aside from the inability to find Osama (who hasn't been heard from lately...), the Intel community isn't as bad as you would make it seem. Don't forget, the WMD evidence was assembled by those who wanted to make it fit their purpose, and others had been warning them about the lack of real intel.

Don't blame the scalpel for an errant cut.

My reading of CIA history is that it's a very dull and crooked scalpel. Maybe the Big Bosses don't *want* intel. Even Truman, who started the cia, AND DAMNED IT AFTER THE FACT AS A BUNCHA nAZIS AND MEDDLERS (WHICH WAS TRUE), (dnag CAPS key) didn't want unbiased intelligence. He said, "All I wanted was a newspaper (i.e., of global intelligence) but he had already shown, with the CIA's forefathers, the OSS, that he cherry-picked for intel that confirmed his bias.

DA twooth?!? You can't handle da twooth! SO there! Fpbtttt!!!"

Consider that the vast, rapidly-assembled security aparatus may well be doing more that's motivated by their red state factions and/or blue state factions. Their political patrons.

Various scandals orchestrated by whom? For whose benefit? Combinations of homeland security and private contractors?

I think that's what makes the Spook County ending so great- the radioactive money is being laundered by a mega-church. But it may well be stopped at the border. The mega-church is screwed. The driver (Brown?) is screwed. Heads roll at the NSA...