One of my favorite aspects of the book is how, early on, Milgrim's plight is deftly defined by Milgrim's refutation of the Stockholm syndrome in his denial of empathy for Brown (who I can't help but see as the asshole Grandpa in the tv cartoon about the family in Texas, Daddy works for Strickland Propane, name of show eludes me).

Later on, probably with the switch from Ativan to Rize, Milgrim's interactions with Brown hint at, if not empathy per se, at least some form of communication, even sympatico.

Then, during the main climax sequence, when Milgrim points out Tito to Brown outside the bar-hotel in Vancouver, we see something very much like the Stockholm syndrome at work. Why should he point out who Brown wants when it's likely Brown will 'disappear' Milgrim once the mission is accomplished?

But, ironically, this provides the jarring experience, literally a wake-up punch in the face, that motivates and allows Milgrim to grab a fistful of Rize and escape.

"Sorry," he says. "Sorry."

Not 'fuck you' or even 'whatever'. "Sorry."

Well done, I say.

"Cotton"

I remember now: King of the hill.

"Cotton"?

It seemed to me that milgrim didn't so much sympathize with Brown. He rather thought him kind of a loser. One in charge, but still a schmuck (sp?). that was the commentary for me, that a barbituate addict saw this spook as a total tool. Milgrim clearly had more respect for his dealer than he did Brown.

Agreed. He disliked him intensely, and with good reason. But it seems as if the Stockholm syndrome, or something like that, came into effect as the book went on.

He didn't *like* Brown. (What's to like?) But he came to... rather like how old black slaves internalized their subservience to the point that their demeanor reinforced their owners' belief that the slaves were really happier in bondage than otherwise.

Another aspect is toward the end, when the old man talks about how today's defense/intel idjuts have reversed the lessons learned the hard way about how torture is counterproductive: the victims never trust you. No Stockholm syndrome possible. Brown treated Milgrim like shit and caused him unnecessary pain.

But still, although all Milgrim wanted was to escape, and found Brown crazier the more Brown shared with Milgrim, he still helped voluntarily pointed out Tito... which, paradoxically, brought about his freedom.

Omigod... this is like an Oprah book club discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Agreed. He disliked him intensely, and with good reason. But it seems as if the Stockholm syndrome, or something like that, came into effect as the book went on.

He didn't *like* Brown. (What's to like?) But he came to... rather like how old black slaves internalized their subservience to the point that their demeanor reinforced their owners' belief that the slaves were really happier in bondage than otherwise.

Another aspect is toward the end, when the old man talks about how today's defense/intel idjuts have reversed the lessons learned the hard way about how torture is counterproductive: the victims never trust you. No Stockholm syndrome possible. Brown treated Milgrim like shit and caused him unnecessary pain.

But still, although all Milgrim wanted was to escape, and found Brown crazier the more Brown shared with Milgrim, he still helped voluntarily pointed out Tito... which, paradoxically, brought about his freedom.

Omigod... this is like an Oprah book club discussion.

Milgrim didn't want to escape. He wanted to escape with drugs. In the totality of being Milgrim, drugs are not the number one priority, they are the only priority. Brown had some. I don't think Milgrim much cared what he was doing, who he was or felt one way or another about much of it, apart from getting the drugs and making nice with the dealer for more drugs. he didn't call up the police in the laundry he called another junkie.

quote:

Milgrim didn't want to escape. He wanted to escape with drugs. In the totality of being Milgrim, drugs are not the number one priority, they are the only priority

'escape' is not synonymous with 'w/out drugs'. This is, after all, the comment thread where spoilers are OK. Everyone who's read the book knows that Milgrim wasn't gonna run until he knew he had a way to prevent himself from having seizures amid a throat-eviscerating anxiety attack.

This is, in fact, precisely why Brown could hold him in subjugation, is it not?

Any day of Milgrim's life at that point was a search to escape, from looming anguish and possible death, by purchasing more Ativan.

But he still wanted to escape from Milgrim even though Milgrim was a very steady supply, yes?

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
But he still wanted to escape from Milgrim even though Milgrim was a very steady supply, yes?

The very definition of addiction.

quote:

Originally posted by UberDog:

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
But he still wanted to escape from Milgrim even though Milgrim was a very steady supply, yes?

The very definition of addiction.

Oops. Yes, you are eggzackally right, but I mistyped. I *meant* to type But he still wanted to escape from BROWN even though BROWN was a very steady supply, yes?, which addresses a very different concept.

Wow. Two insights for the price of one. We should disagree more often. It seems profitable.

Yes. It is profitable.

I think you may be right on the Stockholm as Gibson read that chapter today and when he read the last lines of those chapter it implied tonally the irony you suggest.

Even if he does operate unconsciouly when he writes.

Damn. I hate it when I'm right. Tosses water on a perfectly smoldering argument.

Milgrim comments on Brown's rants about Social Marxism and Political Correctness and as a last jab at Brown and Brown's spoilled brat approach at intelligence, Milgrim says "sorry" instead of "FUCK OFF!"

quote:

Well done, I say.

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
I remember now: King of the hill.

"Cotton"?

The name of the grandpa... link

quote:

The name of the grandpa...

Ah. I thank'ee.

A curious coincidence that I read was (I may have imagined it totally because I haven't found the quote yet) a line about being "agnostic about everything". I sure think I remember reading it in _Spook Country_. But, I definitely remember Robert Anton Wilson saying it in a video that I saw on YouTube. I imagined the line to be a tribute to RAW.

"...Reality is what you can get away with...if you can't get away with it, it ain't real..." - RAW

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
A curious coincidence that I read was (I may have imagined it totally because I haven't found the quote yet) a line about being "agnostic about everything". I sure think I remember reading it in _Spook Country_. But, I definitely remember Robert Anton Wilson saying it in a video that I saw on YouTube. I imagined the line to be a tribute to RAW.

"...Reality is what you can get away with...if you can't get away with it, it ain't real..." - RAW

Bigend tells Hollis he is "agnostic about everything" when she asks if he thinks the whole thing might be a sham. Or some such.

Thanks uberdog I thought I was hallucinating for a awhile there. Still haven't found the page.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
Thanks uberdog I thought I was hallucinating for a awhile there. Still haven't found the page.

I think it's in the Vancouver flat when she asks him about the scrambler and so forth.

Chapter 43. Pong, top of page 193 (in the US edition):
Bigend - "Never a good idea. I'm agnostic, basically. About everything."
Thanks again UberDog.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
Chapter 43. Pong, top of page 193 (in the US edition):
Bigend - "Never a good idea. I'm agnostic, basically. About everything."
Thanks again UberDog.

You're welcome.