I haven't finished the book yet. I keep wanting to comment or discuss little bits, but I want to avoid spoilers and spoiling it for others, so this thread should be kept to general comments about Hollis, rather than specific plot points.

To start out, mentally I cast Cayce as Hollis. I might be wrong, but neither of them are described physically in either book. In fact, we know less about Hollis as we aren't as aware of the clothes she wears as we were with Cayce. I'm not even sure we know her hair colour, although we know she gets it cut.

Although mentally I cast Cayce in the role, I also half imagined Hollis as being English, although I'm pretty sure she's not. I kind of imagined all of The Curfew being English, while I'm pretty sure only Inchmale is. Funnily enough I had imagined him as a Pete Townsend type, even before I got to the nose bit. Hollis then I see as a New Yorker. Again, there seems to be little backstory to fill this out.

The main difference I see between Cayce and Hollis is Hollis' quirky sense of humour. The pirates line and the steganography crack with Bigend are something Cayce couldn't have come out with. However, the jokiness only appears when she is with Bigend, so perhaps this is a sign of nerves.

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Originally posted by Kradlum:
To start out, mentally I cast Cayce as Hollis. I might be wrong, but neither of them are described physically in either book.

Somewhere was a brief physical charecter description that does vary from Cayce (a bit). Although, I would have to read up Pattern Recognition again.

There are more similarities, in charecter. At the very end of the book. Tell me when you finished, I would love to discuss and see how other people think about it.

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The main difference I see between Cayce and Hollis is Hollis' quirky sense of humour. The pirates line and the steganography crack with Bigend are something Cayce couldn't have come out with. However, the jokiness only appears when she is with Bigend, so perhaps this is a sign of nerves.

Yes. Hollis appears alot more confident then Cayce.

I'm done with the book.

I thought Hollis was a lazy-man's clone of Cayce, and was rather disappointed by this. Gibson seems to have a solid habit now of casting women as the protagonist, but if they all end up the same...?

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Originally posted by mirrorgirl:
I thought Hollis was a lazy-man's clone of Cayce, and was rather disappointed by this. Gibson seems to have a solid habit now of casting women as the protagonist, but if they all end up the same...?

Remember 'Count Zero'?


Somehow Hollis is still the character one can most easy associat with. Maybe thats why she seems to be so much like Cayce? Because it is our own mind that fills the gaps. And if we lack the imagination, well then it is after all ours fault that we map the charecter on the same model.



*big spoiler below*



Very late in the book, when Hollis was going to hide information from Bigend, I was almost screaming out: "Please not again!" This is just Cayce all over again. So I was very pleased to discover that a few pages later she went straight. I thought that Bill might wanted to trick the reader at this point. To stress out the differences after all.
But then, in the very last chapter in the book - she did it again. - Why?

- It is a pattern alright.

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Originally posted by Newromancer:
[QUOTE] And if we lack the imagination, well then it is after all ours fault that we map the charecter on the same model.

It isn't the fault of my sufficiently vivid imagination to paint a whole new character when there simply isn't enough information to distinguish it from a previous one. That's just not good characterization.

Chevette, for example, does not mingle in my mind with any other character. And I loved Cayce as a character and thought her remarkably well-considered. Hollis, however, is a cipher, a wireframe...and ends up being a projection of Cayce.

quote:

Originally posted by mirrorgirl:
Hollis, however, is a cipher, a wireframe...and ends up being a projection of Cayce.

She does lack a real characteristic identifier. Something like Cayce's allergy. It does make her more human, more normal, somehow. At the same time, less defined.

But yes. As mentioned above, some of the similar character properties are ... a bit annoying.

skipping the last few posts to avoid the spoilers.

cayce was described as being reminiscent of helmut newton's portrait of jane birkin.

not got a clear picture of hollis. but i don't tend to think of her as being the same as a person. picture her more of a dirty blonde than cayce. though part of me also pictures her as kim deal, and inchmale as frank black.

it does feel as though she is the lead character in some way. the character who we are hooking into. not sure if that is because of cayce, hubertus, and blue ant. or if her sections are actually longer than the others?

to a degree i reckon there is scope for a pattern recognition vs spook country. stuff like tito's father vs cayce's father.

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though part of me also pictures her as kim deal

Strange, I was leaning more towards Kim Gordon.

kim gordon works as well, especially that dirty blonde thought. someone a bit raw and prickly.

kim (or kelley) deal sounds spot-on. Though, in her lighter, Pixies days.

it was the fuzzy love hate relationship that made me think pixies. "you fuckin' die!"

"You fuckin' die!"
I always assumed that was Frank desperately trying to not have Steve Albini beat him up.

yeah. could be, but its always that backtracking - "no, it was kim, i was finishing her sentence..."-which defines it for me.

You fuckin' die...

Pixies works. As would Sonic Youth, which was the second equivalent I picked.

First was B-52's. I'm not sure why, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasa:
First was B-52's. I'm not sure why, though.

because your funny like that?
i guess we know what you'll be singing at the laughing buddha - LOVE SHACK BABY!

Never!

probably too tricky, anyway

Just picked up the book this morning and finished it up this evening. I liked it but not quite as much as I liked PR. Tito's chapters were probably my favorite, I kind of like the thought of a clan of spooks roaming the world....
Keeping in mind that this is just a first impression, but the main difference I feel between Cayce and Hollis is that Cayce drove much of the action in PR, while Hollis seemed to be more of an observer. Not sure if that is entirely clear, but it's a start of why I think that Cayce was a much stronger character.

still only about p180. but between mike's comment and uberdog creeping me out quote, i think hollis is more resistant, so far, to the idea of bigend/blue ant. sure cayce resisted, but it was always kind of token, kind of well she was already actually tied and knew who bigend was. hollis has more of sense of really not liking what is going on. but yeah, that could well change in the rest of the book.

Not sure why there's so much hostility toward Hollis out there. Cayce was an aberration for WG. She was glorious, but she was a navel-gazing aberration compared to the man's usual characters' much more spare and reserved style of introspection. Previous heroes and heroines examined their thoughts with noir-like precision and ruthless dispatch. Cayce settled down in her obsessions like they were warm syrup in her swimsuit.

Like I said, I liked Cayce. But I'm glad to see a step back in the old direction at least in these respects. Unlike Cayce, Spook Country's characters are slanted more toward showing than telling.

The most notable exception is Milgrim, who I read almost as a kind of amused commentary on security culture taken directly from a corner of WG's own mind.

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Originally posted by Splitcoil:
The most notable exception is Milgrim, who I read almost as a kind of amused commentary on security culture taken directly from a corner of WG's own mind.

Yes. As the end came closer I started to wonder about Milgrims real purpose. As a character he didn't really seem important enough to receive all this attention. But then, it really became obvious.

For a drug addict, Milgrim is unbelievably calm, isn't he?