Hi,I'm Mike.I'm new to this forum.at the end of idoru,and throughout all tomorrow's parties,there

are "characters" named Klaus and The Rooster.Now,i am a Steely Dan fan,and there is a song called

here at the western world,which makes a reference to Klaus and The Rooster.This is an old song,

written long before these books came out.is there any connection between the song and the

characters in the books?Please let me know what you think.Happy New Year!Mike

I cannot talk for Mr. Gibson, but he is a well known Steely Dan fan, and this has come before.

What I love about that immaculately chrome dildo, The Dan, is that they play what they like, and with great devotion. It's always been hot or moss for me but... integrity, dey gotz.

I adore how they handle poor Katie:

Dan

And I love Bernard Purdie's handling of this tune.

From 2:34 on is tres Gibsonian with the digital marquee letters streaming from Fagen's mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by mikec46:
Hi,I'm Mike.I'm new to this forum.at the end of idoru,and throughout all tomorrow's parties,there

are "characters" named Klaus and The Rooster.Now,i am a Steely Dan fan,and there is a song called

here at the western world,which makes a reference to Klaus and The Rooster.This is an old song,

written long before these books came out.is there any connection between the song and the

characters in the books?Please let me know what you think.Happy New Year!Mike

He took the names from said song as well as the name of the club in Idoru from the title.

The title of the book "All Tomorrow's Parties" is taken from a Velvet Underground song of the same name.

Also the character also of the Rooster also appears in Virtual Light.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: supercide,

thanks for the responses!now i have another excuse to reread his books again!not that i really need one.you guys rock!

and let's not forget

"if it's that small a world it starts to smell funny"

and/or

"a microscopic cog in a catastrophic plan"

both of which caused me to lose a tad (just a tad, and of a considerable quantity in total) of respect for him as an author.

I realize those are not Steely Dan lyrics\titles, but it has to be said, so...why not here? why not now?

quote:

Originally posted by jbx:
and let's not forget

"if it's that small a world it starts to smell funny"

and/or

"a microscopic cog in a catastrophic plan"

both of which caused me to lose a tad (just a tad, and of a considerable quantity in total) of respect for him as an author.

I realize those are not Steely Dan lyrics\titles, but it has to be said, so...why not here? why not now?

Intrigued, Kenmeer asked, "And why did those expressions cause you to lose a tad?"

quote:

Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:

quote:

Originally posted by jbx:
and let's not forget

"if it's that small a world it starts to smell funny"

and/or

"a microscopic cog in a catastrophic plan"

both of which caused me to lose a tad (just a tad, and of a considerable quantity in total) of respect for him as an author.

I realize those are not Steely Dan lyrics\titles, but it has to be said, so...why not here? why not now?

Intrigued, Kenmeer asked, "And why did those expressions cause you to lose a tad?"

They are both lines from songs. I figure the point of being "a writer" is that you think up your own badical words rather than cribbing off somebody elses badical words.

I'm fine with chapter titles being song rips. But actual lines in actual books? Smells of hackery! And I wuvz teh Gibson too much for anything but a tough love approach.

(Because I'm sure he's, personally, quite crushed by my displeasure)

I suppose they could be looked as homages. Like if character said, "To be or not to be....", and trailed off, that'd be alright, but these didn't seem to be used in the sense of making reference to the well known. Of course I could well be quite wrong about that. The false intertextuality (or are songs "texts" in PoMo world? I can't remember) of using song lyrics as uncredited references to those same songs, as opposed to having characters reference them.....

I could say more but...I worry about hitting WALLOFTEXT breakpoint.

I know lots of people who quote song lyrics aphoristically in everyday speech. Don't confuse what the characters say with the voice of the author.

Agreed, Sentinel. Sometimes they can take a sad song and make it better.

quote:

Originally posted by Sentinel400:
I know lots of people who quote song lyrics aphoristically in everyday speech. Don't confuse what the characters say with the voice of the author.

The quotes in question are internal dialog tho. Are the IRL folx you're thinking of quoting songs for other people like Fashionpolice?

If you "quote" something you should indicate it's a "quote" right? Since the intent is to reference the reference.

I did not see any indication that that was intended to be the case in the case of either of those two lines, which was what bugged me. I think they are both sweet lines, but both of them seemed out of place in the context they were used in the book.

If Cayce had made an indication (any indication) that she was thinking of the SoM when using the line, that would be one thing, but it did not seem that way to me, it seemed as if the author was the one who inserted the line, rather than the character, the "microscopic cog..." line was even more that way, to me. I certainly could be wrong, but your point is the point I was attempting to make, in both of those uses it seemed like the voice of the author and, very distinctly, not, the voice of the character.

I mean would Laney really be dropping casual Nick Cave allusions? Does that seem like it fits him or his characters voice?

I, and it might just be me, do not think so at all, which, again, is what bugged me about both references in the books, they took me very much out of the narrative flow because they seemed strikingly unrelated to what the character would have said.

It's probably just me tho.

quote:

Originally posted by jbx:
It's probably just me tho.

Not knowing the Nick Cave reference myself, I wouldn't have picked up on this. Thus, to me, these bits of swiped text have no referent outside of whatever text they came from. It seems in character for Laney to me. Why wouldn't Laney pick up on some lyrics? Maybe it's that nugget that lets the in-the-know reader know that Laney has an extensive .mp3 collection somewhere. Is that good? Bad? Who knows. As readers, all our baggage is different.

So, yes, it is just you.

quote:

Originally posted by Justy:

quote:

Originally posted by jbx:
It's probably just me tho.

Not knowing the Nick Cave reference myself, I wouldn't have picked up on this. Thus, to me, these bits of swiped text have no referent outside of whatever text they came from. It seems in character for Laney to me. Why wouldn't Laney pick up on some lyrics? Maybe it's that nugget that lets the in-the-know reader know that Laney has an extensive .mp3 collection somewhere. Is that good? Bad? Who knows. As readers, all our baggage is different.

So, yes, it is just you.

I'll look it up again this evening to confirm, but I believe the usage for Laney in...ATP? was "he felt like a microscopic cog...", so it would be the authors "voice" in that case wouldn't it?

In that it's not a internal character thought but a external descriptor of internal character emotion.

The Cayce reference is more oblique in that she could have been thinking the thought to herself as an homage to her favorite band the Sister of Mercy, but the Laney case that seems less likely. But, again, I'll check this evening.

Oh, well, sure, of course it's just me in that case. I mean it's always "Just you" in all cases isn't it?

PS: http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/n/nickcave10713/redrighthand343534.html

There's the lyrics. It's a sweet tune if you've not heard it, I totally suggest you do so.

May I recommend that you read this article in Wired:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/gibson.html
God's Little Toys
Confessions of a Cut & Paste Artist
by William Gibson, July 2005

You'll understand his sampling much better afterwards.

quote:

"Who owns the words?" asked a disembodied but very persistent voice throughout much of Burroughs' work. Who does own them now? Who owns the music and the rest of our culture? We do. All of us.

Though not all of us know it - yet.

quote:

Experiments with audiotape inspired him in a similar vein: "God's little toy," his friend Brion Gysin called their reel-to-reel machine.

God's little toy (the mini-blimp with camera) appears in ATP, right? Quite possibly the character was borrowing the name from the same place that Gibson got it, but given the content of the article I'm inclined to think it is the author as much as the character. With the Steely Dan and Velvet Underground references littered throughout, one could make a case for ATP being Gibson's go at doing a novel using the cut-up method, except the source material was song lyrics instead of books.

To each his own. I didn't recognize the Nick Cave reference (and quite possibly Nick Cave got it from somewhere else as well), and I should think Cayce quoting SoM in her internal dialog was not out of character (especially as she may have come across the phrase via some other person using it rather than direct from SoM). So neither case bothered me.

As for quoting without "quoting," lots of authors have appropriated and remixed "the sky above the port was the color of television tuned to a dead channel," and I doubt any of them footnoted or used quotation marks.

On the other hand, I can see what you mean, I just don't really agree.

Certainly Cave got the Red Right Hand bit elsewhere (Milton) and seems to have gotten it "wrong" at that. And "microscopic cog..." has now turned in to Myspace profiles (Myspacians? Myspaceites?) and those could be Cave refs or Gib refs.

I'm sure it's just me. Heck it bugs me when writers use the same descriptor or class of descriptors more than once (I recall a novel which featured: Feral grins, lupine grins, and wolfish grins. Yes. Thank you. I GET IT!) seems lazy.

quote:

Originally posted by colin:
God's little toy (the mini-blimp with camera) appears in ATP, right?

Yup, and Denmark's Radio had a design element for a while which I'm certain was inspired by God's Little Toy in ATP.

Once upon a time the technical drawings for it were available on the web, but I can't remember which agency drew it, and can no longer find any references on their homepage (dr.dk)

The bastards (DR) have also removed the Bestseller interview where they ask Gibson to take off his clothes.

I'm guessing that not only do Gibson's sampled texts *work*, but they're also there for his own amusement. The references keep him company during the writing process.

And speaking of mini-blimps and fiction becoming reality becoming fiction becoming reality (that was the subject right? always.).

"Two summers ago, in 2006, Fred Cavazos showed up at the Enso site, which was just a parking lot at the time, with an 18-foot-long helium blimp. Cavazos is the owner of Above the Rest Aerial Photography. The blimp is white with red fins and has "atrphoto.com" printed in black letters on its side. He attached a digital camera to the blimp and unspooled it up into the air like a kite. He had made markings on the tether to correspond with each of Enso's planned floors. Cavazos maneuvered the blimp by hand and the camera, when the wind conditions were right, took dozens of pictures in every direction at each level."

from

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=546109&hp

Which is itself rather Gibsonian I think. Creating simulated views for buildings which don't exist and, perhaps, might not ever really exist.

the blimp is here:

http://atrphoto.com/

(and very cute)

Tho I imagine the book means something like a sexier version of:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/rc/7397/