This topic may have already been discussed (I am new here
Does anyone esle think that "The Matrix" is loosely based on Count Zero? Does anyone know if William Gibson collaborated on the production of the film? I am just curious...

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This topic may have already been discussed

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Yes it has, that's why we have the FIND button.

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I am new here

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Welcome to the board.

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Does anyone esle think that "The Matrix" is loosely based on Count Zero

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Not CZ specifically, but the creators have mentioned Neuromancer, along with many other numerous cyberpunk stories and films.

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Does anyone know if William Gibson collaborated on the production of the film?

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Never seen any evidence for that.

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I am just curious...

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A good trait to have.

Thanks a bunch madevilbeats.
I checked out the FIND button before I posted -- a lot of material there -- would take a while to look through. OK with you? Cool.
The reason I thought The Matrix was based on Count Zero, is because after I saw the film, I've re-read the book and the sequence of events seems almost identical there (although of course the characters all have different flavors). One of the many examples, is when the Count is taken to see the Holy Man in the projects.
Anyone who is interested, try reading the book after you watch the movie.

You have an interesting point. I would say the similarities are probably more to do with the tradition of narrative story structures as described by Joseph Campbell in Hero With a Thousand Faces. Since this structure pops up all over the place, it is only natural to be influenced by it, whether the author does so consciously or not. I doubt the Matrix was based specifically on the structure of Count Zero itself though, since it pulls influence from such a variety of sources.

Sorry if I was a bit assholeish about the FIND button.

No problem bud Thank you for your reply.
I see your point... a valid and interesting one. I haven't read any of Joseph Campbell's books, but I've watched the PBS interview with Bill Moyers, since about 1999, almost every time it came on -- he is god

there is a recent thread here in the Neuromancer and other.... section, called wINTERMUTE. probably the most interesting Sprawl trilogy related thread I've seen on here in awhile (not just cause i've been participating in it ), and there's not much going in that discussion that reminds me of The Matrix in any way, but the Neuromancer Film thread has a lot of opinions about The Matrix and how it is influenced by Gibson's works.

Is that the Power of Myth program?

Yes, it is the Power Of Myth. I believe that Bill Moyers hosted it with the main guest being Joseph Campbell, among the other guest being George Lucas.

What people don't realize is that there are seven basic themes and three basic antagonists. It is very rare that some comes up with a new story, It is mostly retelling the same stories with different, characters, conflicts, and settings. Most of story telling is finding new ways of using these base parts and coming up with something new.

Thanks supercide, i have the Power of Myth on DVD, just wasn't sure if maybe there was some other PBS Cambell show floating around.

Care to recommend any good books on the topic of underlying basic story archetypes?

madevilbeats, thank you - I'll check out the threads. Yes, as supercide said, it's the Power of Myth series. There are more video tapes that can be bought from his foundation site - www.jcf.org - mostly lectures I think.

supercide - I agree with what you say - it's your basic "hero" story. But I don't think it is a coincidence that The Matrix is wrapped in cyber punk packaging. I am trying to figure out how much the creators of the film borrowed from Gibson's work - Neuromancer + Count Zero, etc. They mentioned him as one of the sources/inspirations, but maybe they themselves do not realize how much of his stuff they re-enterpreted/used. I think they created their own story (Thomas Anderson aka "Doubting Thomas" aka "son of god" awakening/discovering himself and his destiny/purpose + good guys, bad guys, etc.), but I am certain that many of the embelishments and much of the sequencing was borrowed heavily from Gibson in particular, because his stuff makes the most sence and is the most interesting and exciting out of all the cyber punk literature/film out there. I don't know - I think credit should be given where credit is due. Oh well, I guess I should just be thankful that we have all this wonderful stuff around.

chado- have you looked through the philosophy section of the Matrix website? there are like, 15 or so essays that attempt to analyze the film(s). You'll see the surface of Matrix owes a lot to cyberpunk in general, and to William Gibson being the most influential author of the cyberpunk genre, but the deeper elements of the Matrix go way way back, to the Ancient Greeks and the human quest to explain Reality.

There was a recent thread on Joseph Cornell, the artist whose work the boxes in Count Zero are based on, and I linked to an interview from 1989 in it. It's a pretty good interview about how Gibson feels about his novels, you may enjoy checking it out.

I think the cyberpunk wrappings exist because Gibson was the first person to really describe what is going on in your head when you talk on the phone, or play a video game, or use a computer and see that all those things are related somehow.

I fear I could write a whole paper on this topic, so I'll quit while I'm ahead, and just finish by saying the Matrix ripped off Gibson because he has the best shit to rip. Simple as that. But you knew that already.

The Wachowski brothers admit to basing the Matrix on Nueromancer, among other books. I believe the Wachowski brothers had a rerquired reading list for the cast of the movie, I know Plato's Cave, Jean Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation.

COOOOL...

Regarding the works which influenced The Matrix, let's not forget Mamoru Oshii's "Ghost In The Shell" (the first one obviously) which the W. bros. also acknowledge apparently.
As in Neuromancer, a rogue AI decides it wants to merge with another intelligence. Only this time it's the Cyber-Brain digitalised conciousness of Motoko Kusanagi, a human cyborg.
The resultant being is "neither the woman known as the Major nor the program known as the Puppetmaster", which looses itself upon the 'Net (cyberspace) and **SPOILER SPOILER** rescues her erstwhile sidekick Batou in his hour of need in the sequel which came out recently.

This is my first post, BTW. Good to be here.

DemDom, Im not a regular poster here, but welcome to the board.

id encourage you to chat/post/explore the random thoughts section.... just seems that's where most everybody hangs out

jeez... it might have changed though