Well? Your opinion.

Considering what's going on in Holland these days...Dutch MPs approve asylum exodus

Τα παιδεία παίζει.

It’s a heartbreaking problem. When I first moved to Holland in the early 1990s, most of the students in my Dutch language classes were refugees or asylum seekers. I used to go to their tiny gray apartments in the compounds where the government provided them housing. Many of these folks had stories that just about made you lose all faith in the possibility of human dignity and kindness.

But a lot of them were “economic” refugees. Some of them did very well. Some, like one of my very good friends there from Bulgaria, simply bilked the system - they just didn’t know what else to do.

The bottom line though is that Holland is full. The Randstad (the main cities in the West of the country) has about the same population density as Singapore. I know firsthand how unfair the asylum process can be having helped one of my classmates from Nigeria through it in 1992. But you’ve got to have *some* criterion, and the length of time passed since a failed application is about as fair as you could be (and it’s not really fair, just the best of the bad solutions.)

I suppose the more pressing issue is how the Dutch - whose tolerance is famous if somewhat misunderstood - could get to the point where they would take this rather draconian step. This will set a precedent for the rest of Europe, and though I don’t think anyone can predict what the ramifications will be, it don’t look too good Jimbob.

Pick me, I'm clean.

I think most of Europe has already passed legislation to deal with economic migrants from the former-Eastern-Bloc countries that will be joining the EU.

Unfortunately the UK failed to pass any legislation as it was bogged down with the Iraq war, which left it in a position that these migrants will flood into the UK. The UK is now desperately trying to form policy to prevent this.

I have lost two long messages to the server, so I will make a short one.

Western Europe is now a gerontocracy, and welfare issues and economies are becoming critical issues for a sizable part of the voters. Is it surprising the elders are conservative?

The extreme right plays to the fears of people. The right plays a bit, too, to avoid losing too many votes to the extremists. The moderate left plays along, as noone wants the extreme right to become a political force. And the extreme left knows they cannot get to power except in coalition, so they make insane promises they can never fulfill.

And the Spanish Social Security system is healthy thanks to the payments from inmigrant workers, after being close to bankruptcy. Of course, our meagre welfare system does not appeal to unemployed inmigrants, who can move to Holland and get a house and a subsidy.

I really have no idea how to vote this year. No good option in the whole spectrum. And punishment votes do not appeal to me. Probably I will vote to the first who recognizes the need to raise taxes...

José

José - don't you think we can make the first truly European Party together
(I wouldn't bother. Too much bs around).

I think a big issue in this whole thing is the historical fact that in Europe during the 19. century democracy, human rights and freedom of speech was connected to ethnic/language communities. It was already a stupid idea then, and it has developed along the most terrifying tracks ever since. But because of this hideous tradition, ethnocentricity still holds some moral ground here in Europe.

Europe has always been a very dense patchwork of different ethnic and religious groups. Who moved about like crazy. So whoever (well, Heine) got the insane idea that any 'people' has the right to a 'state' within a particular 'space', only restarted those 400 years of religious wars they had otherwise finally stopped by creating singular states with a separation between state and religion, and secular education and governance. The persecution of first Jews and now Muslims is a logical consequence of this insanity. Yuck.

(OK, I'm having an argument with someone who has been dead for more than a hundred years. At least he can't fight back... Excuse me, though)

I had a hope in the late nineties (when the "new" right swept Europe) that they could work as a supra-national party to make those harsh decisions the Union requires. And then the nationalisms and playing to the local voters sunk that ship in such a way that Blair, Aznar and Berlusconi (Pseudo left, Nationalistic right, Bizarre oligarchic right) are allies against Chirac and Schröder (Monolithic state right and Classical socialdemocrat). Meanwhile the small countries have practically the same coalitions in power they had the last forty years, under pressure from the extreme right now instead of the extreme left.

The big test now is inmigration, as they have to agree on a common policy. Wait and see.

PanEuropeist Party, where are you?

José

quote:

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Originally posted by JRE:
The big test now is inmigration, as they have to agree on a common policy. Wait and see.

PanEuropeist Party, where are you?

José

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No joke.
The right wing party leader, as part of their campaign, had other (about six) right wing european leaders visit Greece these days to show their collaboration and support for each other. They were hailling him as if he already got the vote in his pocket. (Which is pretty close actually- if you pay any attention to the stupid polls). I think the Spanish dude was with'em too.

Τα παιδεία παίζει.

Choosing who to vote is so depressing. The choices I mean. And you can't say you're not going to either...

I don't believe borders are the problem or the solution. One's mind cannot be free if one is not free. I think one's mindset is the problem and the solution. One should earn one's place in community, and c o n t r i b u t e to it in accordence to one's ability.

(what I'm saying is that nationality doesn't matter, it's more of an attitude issue.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Jesper:
(what I'm saying is that nationality doesn't matter, it's more of an attitude issue.)

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You may do that at an individual level, but you cannot deny that nationality is an issue at the society level. So if nationality does not matter to you, but it matters to the people around you, it will influence your life, no matter what you think.

With education in the hands of family and state you get all kind of mixes depending both on the family's attitude and the nationalistic bent of the government. And in extreme cases (minorities keeping children out of school, state raised children) only one of the two without mitigating circumstances.

The real problem is how can you educate people in freedom without violating that freedom to get them an education. With the secondary problem that most European states aim for a certain bias in the educative (language, behaviour, history, religion/not religion...).

I am an optimist, and if the EU manages to break most of the nationalist opposition to the Constitution and get a common supranational system going, it will make easier to integrate people who are outside the "national" image, and control the "freeloading" attitude that drives some migrants to pick certain countries.

Of course, seeing all the troubles to get the Constitution accepted, and shenanigans like the "Christian Europe" pushed by Poland and our previous government, there is still a long road before we can agree on a common policy.

People like borders, as they define their lives as us/not like us. We are social animals, and borders help you to belong, to feel a part of something bigger. As a creation of the mind, it is the minds you have to work on, as the EU has been discovering the last forty years.

José

José, I think we're mostly in agreement. I realize my thoughts on freedom are somewhat utopian. Education is the key, but as you (so painfully correctly) noted; how do you educate people in freedom without violating that freedom to get them an education?
BTW:Have a great weekend. regards,J