I've never been a fan of button-pushing or statement-making. Justy's link does put it in an interesting light, though.

So many people "know" what isn't art, but those same people are unable to define what it "is".

I take what I can get from all of it. Installation pieces, performance art, dance recitals, heavy metal, death metal, punk rock, hip hop, tattoos, dishware, scarification, there are elements of creativity and medium, of format and fixation, design and execution... the very building blocks of the art world. Too many for me alone to deny it credence.

As for deity emulation, well....shenanigans!!!

quote:

Originally posted by UberDog:
This is a painting of a consequence of economics, not a painting of economics itself. If you wanted to paint econ you could just have a Botticelli rendering of Meynard Kynes masturbating.

One does not arrive at theories until one observes consequences or hears (or sees representations) of them. At least if you're honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Boogerhead:
So many people "know" what isn't art, but those same people are unable to define what it "is"...

..As for deity emulation, well....shenanigans!!!

Art is stupidly ambiguous. To define it is to piss off the entire art community, or at least a portion of it.

Deity Emulation I think was my way of over glorifying the process, maybe thats because I'm a much bigger fan of historic art. I prefer creations that are about an important time or person or even a philosophy/story, what I don't like is encryption.

If there was a god, he didn't design us to have hidden meaning, he designed us to be function able. Thats the problem I see with modern art. Its just designed to look good and say "I'm better than you" hence why the middle and upper classes consume it like crazy. Art and Design are status symbols or at least they've become that way.

I know exactly jack shit about art, but personally I thought it was real because Jack Womack made me think so. Nobody else remember the stillborn fetus art in Elvissey? I read that news story and thought "Huh, just like Jack said, more or less. Guess that shit was inevitable," and moved on.

I suppose I should be disturbed by the fact that I took it in stride and moved on, but fuck me if it really stands out as especially heinous in this beautiful world we live in.

Mr. CP-
If one were to remove the assumptions from your "argument", there'd be nothing left to read.

Everyone has opinions, lets get past your programming and discuss facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Justy:

quote:

Originally posted by UberDog:
This is a painting of a consequence of economics, not a painting of economics itself. If you wanted to paint econ you could just have a Botticelli rendering of Meynard Kynes masturbating.

One does not arrive at theories until one observes consequences or hears (or sees representations) of them. At least if you're honest.

Sure, but painting the construct would be painting the idea without a referential in the real-world, was what I meant when I said "paint economics."

It's a collective fiction, like the art world. A bunch of peeps (most of the planet) buy into this idea that there are economic forces and the like which motivate this other abstraction called the economy which makes those people actually poor.

And, if one were to paint the abstraction into something already abstract (most art) then you'd have something doubly removed from an actual reference group of humans.

Which is how I see the art world.

Does that make sense? I'm distracted with vampires and werewolves right now.

quote:

Everyone has opinions, lets get past your programming and discuss facts.

Facts in a discussion about art... that's gonna be tricky.

The very definition of what constitutes art is personal opinion. (Or at least I've never heard of an agreed upon definition. Anyone?)

My personal opinion is that art is anything that helps you understand yourself and the world around you and learn something.

Of course, it's entirely subjective...

There can absolutely be facts in a discussion of art. Artists put paint to canvas in the ways they choose, and put those decisions on display. You can x-ray canvases to find draft versions of art, or pieces that were made, then abandoned. Artists write about their days, weeks, years. Sometimes those facts can be put together to inform one's opinion about how a work was produced: you can gauge an artist's virtuosity, for example, by looking closely at her brush strokes.

Collecting those facts into an aesthetic theory is where things get contested, as does defining what role art plays in society now that we basically have an artists-as-free-agents system that we've had since the late 19th century.

Not to mention the empirical or legal definitions and the ramifications thereof.

Starting with the definitions of copyright in regards to an original or derivative work, and working toward the rights to display, reproduce and distribute the works in question.

Plenty of room to eliminate opinion and include facts.

The Dadaists have already been mentioned, whom did Shvarts derive her concept?

I don't know, but having seen a pretty extensive exhibit of post WWI dadaist and surrealist works at the National Gallery's Modern Art wing, a lot of it is shocking, more realistic than people like to admit (portraits of post-war casualties contextualized as surreal), and definitely political, yet managing to become timelessly so.

The Dadaist Manifesto.

I like this bit:

quote:

We are. We argue, we dispute, we get excited. The rest is sauce. Sometimes pleasant, sometimes mixed with a limitless boredom, a swamp dotted with tufts of dying shrubs.

And this:

quote:

Any attempt to conciliate an inexplicable momentary state with logic strikes me as a boring kind of game. The convention of the spoken language is ample and adequate for us, but for our solitude, for our intimate games and our literature we no longer need it.

I like this:

quote:

Dada tries to find out what words mean before using them, from the point of view not of grammar but of representation.

Burroughs as Dada-ist?

As for facts, yes it's true that there are facts about art... you can weigh the Mona Lisa. (Has anyone ever done this as a piece of performance art?)
However, facts in the definition of art, that's what I think is tricky, not impossible, but tricky...

I didn't realize this was to become an academic debate.. To be honest I just wanted a casual discussion on the matter. But then I did forget where I was

Art? I know what it isn't when I don't see it... I think.

Anyway, I know what I like.

Art or artifice? You're willing to suspend your disbelief when you go to the cinema or read a book, but in this case it's "OMG SH3 K!11Z0RZ BAB!3Z!"

(Sorry, I only speak P!G30N 133t)

Ultimately the issue is that this is art that has been marketed in the mass media, its NOT for everyone (hence my elitism remark). The controversial element merely gets people talking and generates hype. If they evoke even 1 potential buyer its all worth it for the artist, despite pissing off the mass population. This is no different from Cinema or Books, need I say "Da vinci Code" or "Passion of the Christ" :P. I can't understand why everyone has that double standard either Krad.

From another forum:

quote:

Yet apparently this isn't enough for some feminists, who are saying, "Oh, so now you're saying we have sovereignty over own bodies except after we intentionally get pregnant?"

I myself will grant the title 'art' to that which creates a media phenomenon that inspires penetrating (pun alert) questions/observation like the above.

Art is, after all, not just subjective but based entirely on it's ability to create responses, and responses are inherently subjective.

Personally, if I will grant credence to the existence of an Art World, I will then require acknowledgment of the existence of Shadow Art World, which is composed of those who declare to know what Art is.

The cool thing about real art (however ironic it may be for me to connect the words real and art in some exclusive way) is that it just happens, and we often don't realize it happened until it's over.

That is the most thought out thing I have seen you write, KL.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Boogerhead:
That is the most thought out thing I have seen you write, KL.

Thanks.

You didn't see me write it; you just thought you did.