Well, yeah, as my posts might demonstrate, I actually believe other things besides "poverty and hopelessness" are the source of anger in the regions we're largely talking about. They would include the West's involvement with: bombing raids, invasion, occupation, the subversion and overthrow of democratic governements, the support and succour of corrupt dictatorships, the torture and murder engaged in by those governments along with Western indifference, approval or assistance. That's why I described the "poverty and hopelessness" position as a straw man. I suppose I could have listed these other historical sources of regional anger, but they did strike me as kinda obvious.

As for Spengler's premise - it's bollocks as far as it relates to any particular group, especially AQ. They're easily defeatable, given time and the correct approach - which is why I mock the idea this is a "war". It's about as much a war as the "War on Drugs". The root causes arguement merely makes the point that if you persist in the activities that engender hatred, there'll be another set of terrorists along when we've dealt with the present set. Which isn't why you should stop doing those things - you should stop doing them because they're wrong - but worth mentioning.

If we want to look only at AQ then the root cause arguement is less relevant, at least as regards the leadership. Or, it is if you don't consider arming and funding obscurantist killers a root cause in their desire and ability to come after you when you piss them off by ceasing to sign the cheques.

I could also chat about the effect of destroying secular nationalist and/or leftist anti-colonial groups thereby leaving a vacuum that can be filled by religious nuts, but ... ech.

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Nga saymong chig gö.

"I could also chat about the effect of destroying secular nationalist and/or leftist anti-colonial groups thereby leaving a vacuum that can be filled by religious nuts, but ..."
That's what happened in Afghanistan,Egypt,Palestine,Iran and Irak since the 50s... Now the nuts have turned against their former benefactors. Blowback indeed.

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They would include the West's involvement with: bombing raids, invasion, occupation, the subversion and overthrow of democratic governements, the support and succour of corrupt dictatorships, the torture and murder engaged in by those governments along with Western indifference, approval or assistance.

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...and you gotta include refusual and denial of human rights to citizens of middle eastern countries, by the western nations...
i still need visa to go anywhere in europe...

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Originally posted by L_han:
i still need visa to go anywhere in europe...

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and greece is the only EU country where people still need a visa to visit the U.S. Do you see us bitching? (and actually, I have reasons to)
Turkey on the other hand is not a member of the EU yet.

Τα παιδεία παίζει.

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Turkey on the other hand is not a member of the EU yet.

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see my point?
it is one of the very few islamic counties that is trying to westernize itself and all the western doors are closed tight shut, to every attempt...
how is it going to work?i mean westernization of the middle eastern countries, if western world refuses them to "join the club"?

I was at a lecture concerning Turkey and the EU the other day. Seems Turkey has some problems with human rights, still. So does the US, but they haven't applied for EU-membership.

Anyway. The lecturer said that the official view is that Turkey *must* be admitted when they get their human rights issues relsolved.

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Originally posted by L_han:

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Turkey on the other hand is not a member of the EU yet.

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see my point?
it is one of the very few islamic counties that is trying to westernize itself and all the western doors are closed tight shut, to every attempt...
how is it going to work?i mean westernization of the middle eastern countries, if western world refuses them to "join the club"?

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to echo M's point, regarding their human rights record, I wouldn't let Turkey into the Eurovision Song Contest, let alone the EU.

Stop torturing people, and then the doors won't be shut.

they have the internet on computers now?