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Seasteading
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From "Water World" to the Raft in "Snow Crash" the idea of floating city/states operating as independent governing entities out on the high seas has been a common theme in SciFi. Now, thanks to the investment of some Silicon Valley millionaires we might see a artificial floating nation actually come into being in international waters in the relative near future.
Peter Thiel Makes Down Payment on Libertarian Ocean Colonies Cool, I wish them good luck. If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. |
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I think Bruce Sterling has it right.
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Mm-hm. That's because it's crazy. |
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Meh, Stephenson's 'lash a whole lot of shit together' model in Snow Crash and Mieville's in 'The Scar' seem more plausible.
________________________ differently mediated |
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If for no other reason than this: plenty of justification exists in the dominant streams of international law for a state, or several states, to be able to intervene with such an entity. The only thing protecting your sovereignty on the high seas, really, is the society of states neglecting to think about you or have any interest in you. The second they perceive an interest-- like if you're a high profile, high dollar, high visibility operation declaring yourself a utopian community free from the rule of states-- you will be interfered with. If you want to survive, you have to be a non-story, or poor, or quiet. If, for instance, you become a high profile utopian high tech society, nanoseconds will pass before you become some sort of tax shelter for the uberrich. And then it's only nanoseconds more before people start popping up with accusations of polygamy, sex slavery, and baby-eating. And then here comes the Navy and Coast Guard, baby. Them's the breaks. |
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Or awesome weaponry, which anyway will be necessary to keep non-states from blackmailing/exploiting you anyway. I wonder if it would be possible to buy the USS Iowa or the USS Wisconsin before they become a museum... With no backing state, paragliding a mercenary outfit (or somali pirates climbing aboard) in and looting the place would not be piracy, but salvage. A harsh world, the high seas. Retired |
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So a thief, a voyeur and a megalomaniac start up this nation-state in international waters...
Screw Sterling, Mieville and, hell, even Shirley - Stephen Reilly did all this better in Ninety East Ride. I can't see this ending well, or even ending, or, jesus, even starting. While in Reilly's book, the evil dudes are the ol' standby of "shadowy elements of the US Governmentâ„¢", I'm sincerely hoping they fail. Mostly because giving anyone who was involved with Sun Microsystems run over any sort of community is utterly, bowel-looseningly terrifying. Combined that with a guy who gleans petabytes of info from the web, and the man who started PayPal - it's like a bank that doesn't have to follow banking laws! - I can't imagine anyone wanting to live on this for long. Except the accountants of the rich dudes who're being paid to live their to manage their paymaster's funds, as El Splitcoil mentions. Good will and ideology alone do not for an easy start make. There're far too many conflicting interests, or at least, unwanted interests of the Panamian-registered-ex-freighter-with-a-few-old-Russian-machine-guns-hidden-under-tarps-on-the-deck kind. High-tech weaponry would no doubt further raise the ire of governments around the world. And it still probably wouldn't beat the US Navy. Or even the Australian Navy, and they've got the handicap of Collins class submarines and choppers old than my dad. But can we at least send Splitcoil in first, so that he may mow down wave upon wave of nameless henchman in badly designed uniforms with a few deft pistol shots? Bonus points if they're ten yards away and firing on full automatic and missing, and if Split tosses off a few one-liners. The Lithos School of Curiousity is now enrolling |
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Yes, all the points that indicate this will fail are valid. However, it's encouraging to see some still pursuing it nevertheless. Pushing the envelope as it were. Damn the torpedoes. Otherwise let's just all give up and let the bastards have their way. If the naysayers had always been right historically, we'd still not fly, have made it to the moon or even have this country of America which many of us call home to live in. Thank God the naysayers didn't discourage the folks that made that stuff happen.
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. |
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I don't think Wilbur and Orville said, hey, all these Carolinans piss me off, let's build a machine that will allow us to get away from these fuckers as fast as we can.
And, y'know, in terms of the American Revolution, if you look at it from the perspective of the British, the Yanks were the naysayers. There's not much difference, methinks, between this and that Fundie compound in Texas that got raided a coupla weeks back. And I shudder to think what will happen to those who aren't part of the funding or the original team who have to live and work there. I also thinking that damnation is not a good torpedo countermeasure, at least in this case... The Lithos School of Curiousity is now enrolling |
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No, I don't think Wilbur and Orville said, hey, all these Carolinans piss me off, let's build a machine that will allow us to get away from these fuckers as fast as we can either. But, they were told their machine wouldn't work and most agreed. If they had listened to the those who said it was stupid or that it'd never work we'd still be earthbound. Most of the great inventors and movements had an equal number or more naysayers than this Seasteading group. If we'd listened to all who said forgetaboutit about this or that innovation, idea or movement we'd be still sitting around in caves. Will this work, probably not at this time. However, if people keep pushing the envelope, maybe someday.
What we assume as fact today most likely will be debunked down the road. Those who for centuries said the world was flat were wrong. There are things today that we accept as gospel truth that will be proven wrong in the future. Just like it always has been. At least the Seasteaders won't have to worry about sailing of the edge of the world which would've been part of the naysayers argument really not that long ago. Wow, your comparing the fundie group to these folks? That's a stretch to say the least. I'm not sure what they've ever done to indicate that they're ANYTHING like the fundies. As far as the colonization of America and the subsequent revolution goes. Thank God the naysayers didn't win out on that one. This message has been edited. Last edited by: oddmanrush, If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. |
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I would say we are closer to the Founding Fathers who said: well, yes, rather than just stop paying taxes and tell the king to go to hell, why don't we start expanding the militia and making sure most officers are sympathetic to the secessionist cause?
Or the Wright brother's engine mechanic reminding them that they need a lighter engine... It is when the visionaries get both feet on the ground that things work, never before. Unfortunately for the thousands of flight pioneers before the Wright brothers, who were unable to get an explosion engine. Retired |
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USS WISCONSIN already is a museum. |
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I knew Missouri and New Jersey were already museums, but I thought the other two were still unaccounted for.
I have a weakness for intimidating weapons. And being almost unsinkable is a big bonus. And I get a 403 Forbidden error message. Maybe it is only for the USA? Retired |
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The Battleships and/or the Carriers would be real sweet in so many ways. Tremendous swords into plowshares kind of symbolic images. Practical? I have no freakin clue. However, I think they really should be considered by Peter Thiel and his nouveau rich, big tech money, cohorts (I find it easy to suggest how those with money spend it, don't you?). Just one or two carriers/battleships to get the whole ball rolling. Well, sailing actually. Where? Maybe some friendly anchorage in some far flung archipelago. Who knows? Who the hell cares? Just get it sailing. It'll lead to something. IF the idea is worth a s#@t. Life's an experiment.
Experiment on. This message has been edited. Last edited by: oddmanrush, If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. |
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I’m not sure the Wright Bros. are an apt comparison here, since their hurdle was technical, whereas “seasteading†faces legal and practical challenges. According to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea:
This means that, to have your own law on the high seas, you need your own state. This puts seasteaders in the same boat (no pun intended) as all the other nutcases who think they can found their own country. Now, one might easily say that your new state doesn’t recognize UNCLOS. Unfortunately, real states have more or less unlimited rights of search and seizure of vessels which are not flying the flag of a recognized state. You mentioned using some sort of defensive arms to enforce your sovereignty, which is laughable. If being a government has high barriers to entry, then the barriers to being a government with a legitimate blue-water navy are way out past the orbit of Saturn, and if things ever get to the point where individuals posses firepower equal to nation states, we're all screwed anyway. (also, firing on the ships of a nation with a navy while living in a country that can sink is not a well thought out plan.) In the end, the high seas aren’t even a very good place to seek sanctuary from the law, as it is quite possible to be under the jurisdiction of several states at once. As an example:
Why are you so gung ho for this to work anyway? Just because someone has a new idea does not mean that it is a good idea. It may be better for all concerned if the naysayers are right in this case. As Splitcoil pointed out, people generally use total freedom to gamble, launder money, indulge in or traffic narcotics, and engage in abusive sexual practices. Those concerns aside, Zimbabwe and the Soviet Union are great examples of why running a nation state probably should not be something everyone can do, particularly when the people wanting their own state are more concerned with ideology than the day to day problems of governing a country. |
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Oh, I'm not so gung ho. I just think it's good for people to push the envelope. Which is what this group, led by Peter Thiel is doing. The concept has already been explored in regards to offshore data havens.
If the concept is worth exploring for data, I would think it's worth exploring for people. If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. |
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Cockyeah - pushing the envelope and having dreams is essential, whether practical or not. Opes up, rather than closes down, the set of possible life options. Locking into suburbia is not the only mode...
________________________ differently mediated |
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