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From "Water World" to the Raft in "Snow Crash" the idea of floating city/states operating as independent governing entities out on the high seas has been a common theme in SciFi. Now, thanks to the investment of some Silicon Valley millionaires we might see a artificial floating nation actually come into being in international waters in the relative near future.

Peter Thiel Makes Down Payment on Libertarian Ocean Colonies
quote:
If a small team of Silicon Valley millionaires get their way, in a few years, you could have a new option for global citizenship: A permanent, quasi-sovereign nation floating in international waters.

With a $500,000 donation from PayPal founder Peter Thiel, a Google engineer and a former Sun Microsystems programmer have launched The Seasteading Institute, an organization dedicated to creating experimental ocean communities "with diverse social, political, and legal systems."

"Decades from now, those looking back at the start of the century will understand that Seasteading was an obvious step towards encouraging the development of more efficient, practical public-sector models around the world," Thiel said in a statement.

It might sound like the setting for the videogame Bioshock, but the institute isn't playing around: It plans to splash a prototype into the San Francisco Bay within the next two years, the first step toward establishing deep-water city-states, or what it calls "seasteads" -- homesteads on the high seas.

Within the pantheon of would-be utopian communities, there's a particularly rich history of people trying to live outside the nation-state paradigm out in the ocean. The most ambitious was Marshall Savage's Aquarius Project, which aimed at nothing less than the colonization of the universe. There was also Las Vegas millionaire Michael Oliver's attempt to create a new island country, the Republic of Minerva, by dredging the shallow waters near Tonga. And the Freedom Ship was to be a mile-long portable country costing about $10 billion to construct.

None of these projects has succeeded, a fact that The Seasteading Institute's founders, Google's Patri Friedman and the semi-retired Wayne Gramlich, are keenly aware of throughout the 300-page book they've written about seasteading.

Instead of starting with a grand scheme worthy of a James Bond villain, the Institute is bringing an entrepreneurial, DIY mentality to creating oceanic city-states.

"There's a history of a lot of crazy people trying this sort of thing, and the idea is to do it in a way that's not crazy," said Joe Lonsdale, the institute's chairman and a principal at Clarium Capital Management, a multibillion-dollar hedge fund.

The seasteaders want to build their first prototype for a few million dollars, by scaling down and modifying an existing off-shore oil rig design known as a "spar platform."
Cool, I wish them good luck.


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Posts: 442 | Location: Socorro, New Mexico | Registered: October 04, 2006Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I think Bruce Sterling has it right.


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quote:
"There's a history of a lot of crazy people trying this sort of thing,

Mm-hm. That's because it's crazy.


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Meh, Stephenson's 'lash a whole lot of shit together' model in Snow Crash and Mieville's in 'The Scar' seem more plausible.


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Originally posted by Bravus:
Meh, Stephenson's 'lash a whole lot of shit together' model in Snow Crash and Mieville's in 'The Scar' seem more plausible.

If for no other reason than this: plenty of justification exists in the dominant streams of international law for a state, or several states, to be able to intervene with such an entity. The only thing protecting your sovereignty on the high seas, really, is the society of states neglecting to think about you or have any interest in you.

The second they perceive an interest-- like if you're a high profile, high dollar, high visibility operation declaring yourself a utopian community free from the rule of states-- you will be interfered with. If you want to survive, you have to be a non-story, or poor, or quiet.

If, for instance, you become a high profile utopian high tech society, nanoseconds will pass before you become some sort of tax shelter for the uberrich. And then it's only nanoseconds more before people start popping up with accusations of polygamy, sex slavery, and baby-eating. And then here comes the Navy and Coast Guard, baby. Them's the breaks.


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Originally posted by Splitcoil:
The only thing protecting your sovereignty on the high seas, really, is the society of states neglecting to think about you or have any interest in you.


Or awesome weaponry, which anyway will be necessary to keep non-states from blackmailing/exploiting you anyway.

I wonder if it would be possible to buy the USS Iowa or the USS Wisconsin before they become a museum...

With no backing state, paragliding a mercenary outfit (or somali pirates climbing aboard) in and looting the place would not be piracy, but salvage. A harsh world, the high seas.


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So a thief, a voyeur and a megalomaniac start up this nation-state in international waters...

Screw Sterling, Mieville and, hell, even Shirley - Stephen Reilly did all this better in Ninety East Ride.

I can't see this ending well, or even ending, or, jesus, even starting. While in Reilly's book, the evil dudes are the ol' standby of "shadowy elements of the US Governmentâ„¢", I'm sincerely hoping they fail. Mostly because giving anyone who was involved with Sun Microsystems run over any sort of community is utterly, bowel-looseningly terrifying. Combined that with a guy who gleans petabytes of info from the web, and the man who started PayPal - it's like a bank that doesn't have to follow banking laws! - I can't imagine anyone wanting to live on this for long. Except the accountants of the rich dudes who're being paid to live their to manage their paymaster's funds, as El Splitcoil mentions.

Good will and ideology alone do not for an easy start make. There're far too many conflicting interests, or at least, unwanted interests of the Panamian-registered-ex-freighter-with-a-few-old-Russian-machine-guns-hidden-under-tarps-on-the-deck kind.

High-tech weaponry would no doubt further raise the ire of governments around the world. And it still probably wouldn't beat the US Navy. Or even the Australian Navy, and they've got the handicap of Collins class submarines and choppers old than my dad.

But can we at least send Splitcoil in first, so that he may mow down wave upon wave of nameless henchman in badly designed uniforms with a few deft pistol shots? Bonus points if they're ten yards away and firing on full automatic and missing, and if Split tosses off a few one-liners.


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Yes, all the points that indicate this will fail are valid. However, it's encouraging to see some still pursuing it nevertheless. Pushing the envelope as it were. Damn the torpedoes. Otherwise let's just all give up and let the bastards have their way. If the naysayers had always been right historically, we'd still not fly, have made it to the moon or even have this country of America which many of us call home to live in. Thank God the naysayers didn't discourage the folks that made that stuff happen.


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I don't think Wilbur and Orville said, hey, all these Carolinans piss me off, let's build a machine that will allow us to get away from these fuckers as fast as we can.

And, y'know, in terms of the American Revolution, if you look at it from the perspective of the British, the Yanks were the naysayers.

There's not much difference, methinks, between this and that Fundie compound in Texas that got raided a coupla weeks back. And I shudder to think what will happen to those who aren't part of the funding or the original team who have to live and work there.

I also thinking that damnation is not a good torpedo countermeasure, at least in this case...


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No, I don't think Wilbur and Orville said, hey, all these Carolinans piss me off, let's build a machine that will allow us to get away from these fuckers as fast as we can either. But, they were told their machine wouldn't work and most agreed. If they had listened to the those who said it was stupid or that it'd never work we'd still be earthbound. Most of the great inventors and movements had an equal number or more naysayers than this Seasteading group. If we'd listened to all who said forgetaboutit about this or that innovation, idea or movement we'd be still sitting around in caves. Will this work, probably not at this time. However, if people keep pushing the envelope, maybe someday.

What we assume as fact today most likely will be debunked down the road. Those who for centuries said the world was flat were wrong. There are things today that we accept as gospel truth that will be proven wrong in the future. Just like it always has been.

At least the Seasteaders won't have to worry about sailing of the edge of the world which would've been part of the naysayers argument really not that long ago.

Wow, your comparing the fundie group to these folks? That's a stretch to say the least. I'm not sure what they've ever done to indicate that they're ANYTHING like the fundies.

As far as the colonization of America and the subsequent revolution goes. Thank God the naysayers didn't win out on that one.

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I would say we are closer to the Founding Fathers who said: well, yes, rather than just stop paying taxes and tell the king to go to hell, why don't we start expanding the militia and making sure most officers are sympathetic to the secessionist cause?

Or the Wright brother's engine mechanic reminding them that they need a lighter engine...

It is when the visionaries get both feet on the ground that things work, never before. Unfortunately for the thousands of flight pioneers before the Wright brothers, who were unable to get an explosion engine.


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Originally posted by The Psychophant:
I wonder if it would be possible to buy the USS Iowa or the USS Wisconsin before they become a museum...


USS WISCONSIN already is a museum.
 
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I knew Missouri and New Jersey were already museums, but I thought the other two were still unaccounted for.

I have a weakness for intimidating weapons. And being almost unsinkable is a big bonus.

And I get a 403 Forbidden error message. Maybe it is only for the USA?


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The Battleships and/or the Carriers would be real sweet in so many ways. Tremendous swords into plowshares kind of symbolic images. Practical? I have no freakin clue. However, I think they really should be considered by Peter Thiel and his nouveau rich, big tech money, cohorts (I find it easy to suggest how those with money spend it, don't you?). Just one or two carriers/battleships to get the whole ball rolling. Well, sailing actually. Where? Maybe some friendly anchorage in some far flung archipelago. Who knows? Who the hell cares? Just get it sailing. It'll lead to something. IF the idea is worth a s#@t. Life's an experiment.

Experiment on.

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I’m not sure the Wright Bros. are an apt comparison here, since their hurdle was technical, whereas “seasteading” faces legal and practical challenges. According to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea:
quote:
Article 92. Status of ships

1. Ships shall sail under the flag of one State only and, save in exceptional cases expressly provided for in international treaties or in this Convention, shall be subject to its exclusive jurisdiction on the high seas. A ship may not change its flag during a voyage or while in a port of call, save in the case of a real transfer of ownership or change of registry.

2. A ship which sails under the flags of two or more States, using them according to convenience, may not claim any of the nationalities in question with respect to any other State, and may be assimilated to a ship without nationality.
This means that, to have your own law on the high seas, you need your own state. This puts seasteaders in the same boat (no pun intended) as all the other nutcases who think they can found their own country.

Now, one might easily say that your new state doesn’t recognize UNCLOS. Unfortunately, real states have more or less unlimited rights of search and seizure of vessels which are not flying the flag of a recognized state.
quote:
Article 110. Right of visit (emphasis mine)

1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96, is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting that:
(a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
(b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
(c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting and the flag State of the warship has jurisdiction under article 109;
(d ) the ship is without nationality; or
(e) though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.
You mentioned using some sort of defensive arms to enforce your sovereignty, which is laughable. If being a government has high barriers to entry, then the barriers to being a government with a legitimate blue-water navy are way out past the orbit of Saturn, and if things ever get to the point where individuals posses firepower equal to nation states, we're all screwed anyway. (also, firing on the ships of a nation with a navy while living in a country that can sink is not a well thought out plan.)

In the end, the high seas aren’t even a very good place to seek sanctuary from the law, as it is quite possible to be under the jurisdiction of several states at once. As an example:
quote:
Article 109. Unauthorized broadcasting from the high seas

1. All States shall co-operate in the suppression of unauthorized broadcasting from the high seas.
…
3. Any person engaged in unauthorized broadcasting may be prosecuted before the court of:

(a) the flag State of the ship;
(b) the State of registry of the installation;
(c) the State of which the person is a national;
(d ) any State where the transmissions can be received; or
(e) any State where authorized radio communication is suffering interference.


Why are you so gung ho for this to work anyway? Just because someone has a new idea does not mean that it is a good idea. It may be better for all concerned if the naysayers are right in this case. As Splitcoil pointed out, people generally use total freedom to gamble, launder money, indulge in or traffic narcotics, and engage in abusive sexual practices. Those concerns aside, Zimbabwe and the Soviet Union are great examples of why running a nation state probably should not be something everyone can do, particularly when the people wanting their own state are more concerned with ideology than the day to day problems of governing a country.
 
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Oh, I'm not so gung ho. I just think it's good for people to push the envelope. Which is what this group, led by Peter Thiel is doing. The concept has already been explored in regards to offshore data havens.
quote:
WASHINGTON -- A windswept gun tower anchored six miles off the stormy coast of England is about to become the first Internet data haven.

A group of American cypherpunks has transformed the rusting fortress, erected by the British military during World War II to shoot down Nazi aircraft, into a satellite-linked virtual home for anyone looking for a secure place to store sensitive or controversial data.

The founders of HavenCo, which will announce operations on Monday, believe the concept will appeal to individuals and businesses looking for a "safe haven" from governments around that world that are becoming more and more interested in Internet regulation and taxation.

It's for "companies that want to have email servers in a location in which they can consider their email private and not open to scrutiny by anyone capable of filing a lawsuit," says Sean Hastings, the 32-year-old chief executive of HavenCo.

Hastings says that because a 1968 British court decision effectively recognized the basketball court-sized island as a sovereign nation called Sealand, HavenCo can provide more privacy and legal protections then anyone else on the planet.

To create HavenCo -- which will offer Linux servers for $1,500 a month -- the founders signed an agreement with Roy Bates, the quirky "crown prince" of Sealand who landed on the abandoned platform in 1966 and claimed it as an independent nation with its own currency, stamps, and flag.
If the concept is worth exploring for data, I would think it's worth exploring for people.


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Cockyeah - pushing the envelope and having dreams is essential, whether practical or not. Opes up, rather than closes down, the set of possible life options. Locking into suburbia is not the only mode...


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