quote:

Originally posted by UberDog:
CB is correct. Kosovo was a part of Serbia. When they tried to become independent in 1998 Serbia, like Serbia is wont to do, invaded them. This capped the rollicking good time that was collectively known as The Balkan Wars.

Serbia never invaded Kosovo. As you said it Kosovo is a part of Serbia. For the last 10 years Albanian population in Kosovo has been actively trying to separate Kosovo from Serbia and declare independence. In 1998 "Kosovo Liberation Army" started openly engaging Serbian police and army (already located in Kosovo). NATO reacted, bombed the heck out of everyone there, the "war" ended. Serbia agreed to withdraw it's police and military from it's own territory in order to calm down the situation and relinquished control over Kosovo to KFOR.

Yesterday, Kosovo's temporary government declares independence which is against international law.

USA and UK along with a couple of other countries support Albaninan separatist movement in Kosovo. On the other hand Russia along with a couple of other countries is against it. Ie. Spain refuses to recognize Kosovo as a country because then separatists in Spain will surely do the same thing with Baskia.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marvin Freestyle,

Thanks for pitching in, Marvin.

I know the Serbs are saying this is against international law. Seems like Konstunica is finally setting out for his (long planned) head on collision with the EU. He's using this "breaking of international law" as a reason to bring out the threats to annul important treaties with the EU. It's part of the internal Serbian campaign he's waging against the pro-European Boris Tadic.

Can anyone point out to me which law exactly has been broken? I'm not disputing it has, I'm just finding it difficult to get information on that.

Also, according to the Herald Tribune it's 17 of the 27 EU-States who have already recognise Kosovo. Spain (as you said), Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia Bulgaria and Romania are against it. At the moment it's not like only a "couple of countries".

There's a big split in Asia.
Australia and Taiwan recognise them too - China of course is "concerned".

quote:

Originally posted by Kradlum:
Kosovo/Serbia/Yugoslavia was never part of the Soviet Union/Warsaw pact/Russia.

True enough, but there's a supposedly historic bond between the Russians and Serbs that's been largely over dramatized by both sides.

While they've not been under Russian power the Balkans is part of the Russian sphere of influence. American interference in the Balkans is likely seen about the same way in Russia as Americans saw Russian interference in South America. Not through a friendly lens.

Serbia agreed to withdraw it's police and military from it's own territory stop its policy of ethnic cleansing in order to calm down the situation and relinquished control over Kosovo to KFOR.

Um, is that what you meant to say, perhaps? that was my understanding of the situation. But I could be mistaken.

Perhaps I should have said that Putin is against any reduction of Russian influence in the area, which will surely happen if Kosovo is successful in separating from Serbia. Historically, Russia has always supported Serbia and this was true even under the Czars. And just now Putin is in a saber-rattling mood. His stock will go up in many parts of the world, not just locally, if he suppresses an American-supported regime. The Kosovars just might be able to defend their new republic against the Serbs, but not against a serb-Russian alliance.

actually, i meant what i said. if protecting unarmed civilians against another country's guerilla forces on your country's own territory is labeled by western media as ethnic cleansing, so be it. i'm not sure everyone would agree with such a simplistic argument as yours, just ask handke and pinter,
also, according to western media, the war in iraq is because of sadam? right? =)))

on another note, someone asked what legal basis is there to claim that the territory of kosovo and metohija (as it should really be called) is and should continue to be a part of serbia. so here are a couple of legal items to support this claim:
1. UN resolution #1239, May 14, 1999: stated 4 times that Kosovo is territorially a part of Serbia.
2.Belgrade Treaty: June 3, 1999: EU and Russia guarantee teritorial sovereignty and completeness of YU ( at that time SR and MN)
3.UN Resolution #1244,June 10, 1999: all countries,members of the UN guarantee teritorial sovereignty and completeness of YU ( at that time SR and MN)as it has been defined by the UN and Helsinki's closing legal act.
4.The presence of UN in Kosovo and Metohija is conditioned upon approval of Republic of Serbia, as K&M are part of Serbia's territory.

etc.etc.etc.Need I go on? By the way, whatever will we do, when illegal Mexicans decide that Texas should be an independent country?

Just never mind, I don't have enough time to get into this.

No ethnic cleansing. OK.

This is how it is. Kosovo tried to be independent back in year 1989. failed, but then other EX Yugo countries (first Slovenia, then Croatia etc) declared independence. That infuriated Serbs who saw Yugoslavia as Big Serbia, but not just Yugoslavia they had a saying "Serbia all the way to Tokyo" so Serbs invaded their neighboring countries trying to conquer them but failed after several years of conflict (Europe and the rest of the world just watched the conflict letting thousands of innocent people to die).
Then in 1998. Kosovo again tried to declare independance but then Serbs gathered under the command of mafia army led by Željko Ražnatović Arkan and made a genocide on Kosovo people which led Unated States of America to bombard Serbia with rockets and Serbs withdraw their army from Kosovo. Since than Kosovo has it's own currency. On Kosovo there is over 90% Albanians but for instance they are not allowed to attend their own universities because they are reserved for Serbs and they are on Serbian language.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyber_Sputnik:
This is how it is. Kosovo tried to be independent back in year 1989. failed, but then other EX Yugo countries (first Slovenia, then Croatia etc) declared independence. That infuriated Serbs who saw Yugoslavia as Big Serbia, but not just Yugoslavia they had a saying "Serbia all the way to Tokyo" so Serbs invaded their neighboring countries trying to conquer them but failed after several years of conflict (Europe and the rest of the world just watched the conflict letting thousands of innocent people to die).
Then in 1998. Kosovo again tried to declare independance but then Serbs gathered under the command of mafia army led by Željko Ražnatović Arkan and made a genocide on Kosovo people which led Unated States of America to bombard Serbia with rockets and Serbs withdraw their army from Kosovo. Since than Kosovo has it's own currency. On Kosovo there is over 90% Albanians but for instance they are not allowed to attend their own universities because they are reserved for Serbs and they are on Serbian language.

As someone who lived in the area in that time period, I would like to say that what you wrote is not true. Truth is far more complicated...

quote:

Originally posted by Wanderer:
There's quite a big difference between being a hardline communist and having your country be russian territory. Last i heard, Cuba wasn't Russia either.

d00d! you jinxed it.

quote:

Originally posted by Marvin Freestyle:
As someone who lived in the area in that time period, I would like to say that what you wrote is not true. Truth is far more complicated...

Hey, where are you from?
not often I find people from my neck of the woods. Welcome!

Good luck, small, economically weak, militarily impotent, and strategically located nation!

More than anything else, I'm worried that this will embolden all the quasi-nations in the Caspian/Black Sea region. Because what the world really needs is another Balkans.

quote:

Originally posted by Marvin Freestyle:

quote:

Originally posted by UberDog:
CB is correct. Kosovo was a part of Serbia. When they tried to become independent in 1998 Serbia, like Serbia is wont to do, invaded them. This capped the rollicking good time that was collectively known as The Balkan Wars.

Serbia never invaded Kosovo. As you said it Kosovo is a part of Serbia. For the last 10 years Albanian population in Kosovo has been actively trying to separate Kosovo from Serbia and declare independence. In 1998 "Kosovo Liberation Army" started openly engaging Serbian police and army (already located in Kosovo). NATO reacted, bombed the heck out of everyone there, the "war" ended. Serbia agreed to withdraw it's police and military from it's own territory in order to calm down the situation and relinquished control over Kosovo to KFOR.

Yesterday, Kosovo's temporary government declares independence which is against international law.

USA and UK along with a couple of other countries support Albaninan separatist movement in Kosovo. On the other hand Russia along with a couple of other countries is against it. Ie. Spain refuses to recognize Kosovo as a country because then separatists in Spain will surely do the same thing with Baskia.

You're right, invaded was a bad choice of words. They "ethnically cleansed it."

The countries on the side of the Albanians are generally those whose populations don't want to secede.

quote:

Originally posted by Marvin Freestyle:
actually, i meant what i said. if protecting unarmed civilians against another country's guerilla forces on your country's own territory is labeled by western media as ethnic cleansing, so be it. i'm not sure everyone would agree with such a simplistic argument as yours, just ask handke and pinter,
also, according to western media, the war in iraq is because of sadam? right? =)))

I suppose they didn't ethnically cleanse Bosnia either?

Srebrenica didn't happen? We made that shit up? Like the holocaust?

And yes, you need to go on if you're going to refute ethnic cleansing by the Serbs.

You're a Serb right, explain it to us from your side then.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: UberDog,

quote:

Originally posted by Cyber_Sputnik:
Then in 1998. Kosovo again tried to declare independance but then Serbs gathered under the command of mafia army led by Željko Ražnatović Arkan and made a genocide on Kosovo people which led Unated States of America to bombard Serbia with rockets and Serbs withdraw their army from Kosovo.

Who was a soccer hooligan, bank robber, assassin and carried around a baby tiger. Also, he married a pop star and they were rock stars in the Balkans until he got gunned down in a restaurant some years later. Her name is Ceca as I recall she's still alive, I don't know about the tiger.

quote:

Originally posted by Wanderer:
There's quite a big difference between being a hardline communist and having your country be russian territory. Last i heard, Cuba wasn't Russia either.

I don't think I was the one who said that it was Russian territory.

quote:

You're right, invaded was a bad choice of words. They "ethnically cleansed it."

Question is: Kosovo is really small (+/- 8mil inhabitants), makes frontiers with hostile countries (Serbia, Macedonia, Albania) and don't have an economy capable to warrant basic needs. That means that they'll be condemned to be eternally supported by someone (UN, USA, etc...).

Besides, support from EU tends to fade: Spain have Baskia (btw, part of it is in France), UK is almost in peace and don't want IRA back to work, etc...

quote:

Who was a soccer hooligan, bank robber, assassin and carried around a baby tiger. Also, he married a pop star and they were rock stars in the Balkans until he got gunned down in a restaurant some years later. Her name is Ceca as I recall she's still alive, I don't know about the tiger.

Well, with a resume like that he was well qualified to be the leader of a genocide squad...

I just wonder... why in hell people is inclined to follow this kind of screwed leadership...

for money, power and hate.

It has been so strange, since -89, to see how the original idea of uniting all of Europe against more wars has been perverted into so many petty nationalist fantasies with accompanying massive crimes (and of course just plain bigotry).
In the current situation, I hope the Kosova experiment will work out. But I note that more and more of my ex-Jugo friends are defining themselves as Jugoslavs, rather than as belonging to one of those emerging nationalities. Even though they were caught up in the nationalist fever before the slaughters. I suspect they are catching on to the European idea, and with the current speed of knowledge, that may mean that their grand-children may work for a union of peaceful nations.

BTW, the Kosovan population is around 2 million. They are Albanians, which is a huge part of the problem. A greater Albania would comprise both Albania, Kosova, and a large part of FYRoM (Macedonia) -- in all a nation which is hardly insignificant in terms of population and territory. One might say that like those other trouble spots Turkey, (Kurdistan), Israel/Palestine and Iraq, Kosova with the rest of ex-Jugoslavia is part of the damned legacy of the 1919 peace at Versaille.

Russia is insignificant here, and they know it. It's sad, but Russia is really a friend Serbia doesn't need at all. Serbia still has surprisingly strong friends across Europe, but all that smooching with the Russians is doing them no good at all.

Good luck indeed.

(fun note for non-Europeans: my use of "Kosova" instead of "Kosovo" is an indication I support the Kosovan cause. I hope it shines through that my support has many reservations).

quote:

for money, power and hate.

In this question I can't see neither money or power so, the lasting issue is hate. And frankly, I can't understand such an amount of hate.

No, it is not rational, it is a psychotic disorder. Collective or not that is what it is...

quote:

Originally posted by cbarreto:
In this question I can't see neither money or power so, the lasting issue is hate. And frankly, I can't understand such an amount of hate.

No, it is not rational, it is a psychotic disorder. Collective or not that is what it is...

Real reason is and that is hard for the world to believe but almost all Serbs are insane.
For instance in 1991. when they invaded their neighboring countries and devastated cities they refused to admit that the war is going on, not to mention that they are aggressors.
You can watch these movies on Balkan wars
Pretty Village, Pretty Flame (1996)
The Wounds (1998)
These two are Serbian movies

Harrison's Flowers (2000) American movie with Andie MacDowell which shows that there is no ethnic cleansing when it comes to Serbs all the do is genocide and rape little girls.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyber_Sputnik:

Real reason is and that is hard for the world to believe but almost all Serbs are insane.
For instance in 1991. when they invaded their neighboring countries and devastated cities they refused to admit that the war is going on, not to mention that they are aggressors.

Those are my cousins you're speaking about.

Ethnic slurs are fun and all, but they really do simplify topics beyond the point of uselessness.