Engaging with you here, Vec. I would have thought that Hillary was much more centrist than Obama. Am I wrong in that assumption?

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Edwards would probably want to go with the easy sale.

i don't know too much about him, really, apart from i've heard he's placed further left than either clinton or obama. i heard him saying yesterday he would be taking it very seriously, and moving cautiously. would this be in character for him?

might he wait till after super tuesday?

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Originally posted by m!sty:

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But its all just hypocrisy wrapped up in ugly cookie-cutter platitudes.

politics in a nutshell?

Maybe, but this campaign season is being touted as something completely different than previous years. It seems rather obvious to me that Obama is running what he, the media and the constituents think of as a fresh, new, exciting campaign that will drive politics in America in a better direction. Its rather eviscerating to think that in this day and age, we have to even comodify the idea of revolution.

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Originally posted by Bravus:
Engaging with you here, Vec. I would have thought that Hillary was much more centrist than Obama. Am I wrong in that assumption?

It depends on how you look at it; what precisely you're talking about. Hillary breeds divisiveness simply by virtue of her last name. Republicans HATE her, and she might be the only candidate that could galvanize a solid Republican showing in this election. So, in a sense it would be her against the minority Republicans in the house; the Republicans would push themselves further right, changing the center.

Her political stances are more or less centrist, of that there is little doubt. But the fact that the Republicans will refuse to engage with her at all makes the center look somewhat radical.

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It seems rather obvious to me that Obama is running what he, the media and the constituents think of as a fresh, new, exciting campaign that will drive politics in America in a better direction.

the benefit i see in this would be engaging people, either those who'd been turned off for whatever reason in the past, or younger voters. as far as i'm concerned, the more people who start listening, forming opinions and voting, the healthier your democracy. while it may be smoke and mirrors at the moment, if people take it seriously then in the longer term things really could change.

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the benefit i see in this would be engaging people, either those who'd been turned off for whatever reason in the past, or younger voters. as far as i'm concerned, the more people who start listening, forming opinions and voting, the healthier your democracy. while it may be smoke and mirrors at the moment, if people take it seriously then in the longer term things really could change.

You know, I want to write an article about this phenomenon. Here it is that we have this quintessential democracy (supposedly) and our voter turn out is ridiculously low. So, people decry it as failing, people being turned off, not caring etc. I don't see it that way. I think that silence is itself a kind of voting. Sometimes silence screams louder than any pundit. Maybe many people don't vote because of complete disenfranchisement? That is, for instance, even in this coming election the savvy know that regardless of who actually gets elected, the status quo WILL be protected. Negative feedback though since not engaging with the political system IS the status quo.

My problems with Obama are as follows:

1) He's a celebrity candidate in the sense that people want to be close to him like they want to be close to, say, Brad Pitt.

2) He's hypocritical in the most extreme and destructive ways. I haven't read his book, but I *have* read excerpts... and they chill my blood. He idolizes Reagan who, by any stretch of the imagination, was the white male response to both feminism and the equal rights movements of minorities.

3) He must really hate black people, strangely. To use the rhetorical style of MLK, whose speeches and actions actually held CONTENT, and do so in a most vapid, hollow way... well, its just offensive. Every time I hear him speak, its like he's pissing on MLK's grave, and it enrages me.

4) He's running the campaign of "hope." People give endorsements like this: "I endorse the candidate of hope." Hope doesn't put bread on my table. Hope doesn't balance the budget. Hope doesn't get us alternative energy sources. There's probably a solid argument that this "campaign of hope" is the exact same thing on the left that the extreme evangelicals were pulling on the right. That is, giving people something completely ephemeral to stare at while the government rapes our freedoms, guts our infrastructure, etc.

5) He's terribly unqualified to do just about anything. He's approximately as qualified as I am to hold the keys to our nuclear stockpile. That's scary.

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Originally posted by Trogdor:
Obama rated 'Most Liberal Senator' in 2007

lol Obama shoots! HE SCORES!

I wonder what MY liberal rating is? What are the criteria?

"Trout!"

-- Lester Zombie

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3) He must really hate black people, strangely. To use the rhetorical style of MLK, whose speeches and actions actually held CONTENT, and do so in a most vapid, hollow way... well, its just offensive. Every time I hear him speak, its like he's pissing on MLK's grave, and it enrages me.

Dude. You should seek counciling. Medication.

I'm serious.

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Dude. You should seek counciling. Medication.

I'm serious.

Why?

In further news, Kublai voted Most Liberal Khan.

Obama is energizing and engaging and getting out the youth vote. Not just black youth, but white youth too.

"So far, Obama has won among 18-29 year olds in every state, garnering 67% of their votes in South Carolina, 59% in Nevada, 51% in New Hampshire and 57% in Iowa. " - The Nation

Man I'm glad I didn't vote when I was 18. Couldn't have found my ass with a road map and a flashlight, let alone tell the difference between shit and shinola!

Their methodology's kind weird. They seem to put much more stock in actually voting against a Dem proposal than in not voting at all, which Obama did a lot of. In a Sneate where the numbers are as close as this one, isn't abstention from a "Liberal" aye almost as bad.

E.G:

Require U.S. combat troops to withdraw from Iraq by June 30, 2008. October 3. (28-68; 60 votes required because of a unanimous consent agreement) C-2

Clinton: Y - Obama: Did not vote

Oh, and here's an example of what constitutes a "Liberal' vote:

Express the sense of Congress that Iraq should be divided into Shiite, Kurdish, and Sunni federal regions. September 26. (75-23; 60 votes required because of a unanimous consent agreement) L-1

Clinton: Y - Obama: Did not vote

Do what now?

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Originally posted by Vec:
Man I'm glad I didn't vote when I was 18. Couldn't have found my ass with a road map and a flashlight, let alone tell the difference between shit and shinola!

You can't decry lack of voter turnout and then spurn the voters who do turn out, man. That is a bullshit argument.

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3) He must really hate black people, strangely. To use the rhetorical style of MLK, whose speeches and actions actually held CONTENT, and do so in a most vapid, hollow way... well, its just offensive. Every time I hear him speak, its like he's pissing on MLK's grave, and it enrages me.

The vast majority of African Americans are fine with Obama's rhetorical style, as they were with MLK's. African Americans are voting overwhelmingly for Obama.

But we should be concerned. Because it enrages you.

If African Americans want to make that comparison, I think they've a valid stake to do so. They haven't. They, like many other Americans, instead, make the comparison with John F. Kennedy.

All this, they did without checking with Vec to make certain they weren't gonna piss him off.

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They, like many other Americans, instead, make the comparison with John F. Kennedy.

As my side of politics likes to quip: Oh, come on, Obama's not that bad.

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Originally posted by RobW:

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They, like many other Americans, instead, make the comparison with John F. Kennedy.

As my side of politics likes to quip: Oh, come on, Obama's not that bad.

Heh. I agree in a lot of ways.

Are you watching the debate, Trog? I'm reading a liveblog, and I'm interested if she sounds as strident and Rosanna-like as she reads on this blog, or if it's just the blogger's take on it...