Maybe it was cheap 'cause of the all the water damage...

Will Anderson on the Glass House tonight: "The Australian ran this headline: 'PARIS BURNS: But only when she pees.'"

I don't see the point, on the serious side, of rioting. What does it achieve?

quote:

Originally posted by lithos:
I don't see the point, on the serious side, of rioting. What does it achieve?

At best it lets the general populace know that
there's something wrong. Then dialog can start.
More usually, nothing. It's far too easy to
dismiss.

Letting of some steam, feeling some kind of power, maybe for the first time in your life, however wretched and autodestructive it might be.
Of course, there's always someone around ready to put that steam to use, to impulse their own engines. And sometimes they are the ones that heated the now boiling water, to begin with...

wiki

quote:

I don't see the point, on the serious side, of rioting. What does it achieve?

quote:

But in his first move to moderate his Government's tough stance and address the causes of the riots, Mr Villepin announced new subsidies for local organisations and extra money for education, employment and housing in the suburbs.

Please note that when people say "Violence achieves nothing" what they mean is "It would be nice if violence achieved nothing, and if things could be achieved in the absence of violence." But violence does achieve things - that's not an endorsement, it's just a fact.

thx heilagr.. that was a neat way map.. definitely worth a 1000 words.

and Rob, not saying you're necessarily wrong, but throughout the 60/70/80, etc, the IRA were using force but are now resorting to politics.

I'd think you'd be on a very slender limb if you suggested that the IRA would be in a position to use politics if there hadn't been a preceding campaign of violence. The point about any "peace process" is that it of necessity has regard to the agendas that were being pushed with violence. And if there wasn't any violence, you'd never need a peace process.

As for the example of the French riots: leaders too often follow the path of least resistance. That usually means kowtowing to powerful economic and media-owning interests, and anyone with less power will be ignored until they can make sufficient trouble for the leaders such that they are noticed. Clearly there were substantive problems in the ghettoes that needed to be dealt with but were being ignored. Now, perhaps, they aren't being ignored any more. In cases where even troublemaking doesn't get the attention (and "trouble" won't always be torching cars) it's likely nothing would have.

I reiterate - this says nothing about the morality of any chosen course of action. Just so we're clear.

You're right. Violence does solve things.

Wait until the French roll in the APC's.

Not "solve" - "achieve". And don't leave out the "can". I'm the one arguing against an absolute.

Dammit:

Looks like LePen's back.

The UPI link wasn't very clear on the number of people in LePen's audience. The BBC radio report said that the crowd was pretty small. LePen is an arse but hopefully the French are ignoring him.

I wish french people didn't give a sh*t about Le Pen, but his ideas are creeping out of his torture chamber and infecting french society.
Besides, living here, I can't help thinking of the way politics use a scarecrow (by the way, it was Le Pen last time) to make people vote for a "saviour"... Pointless riots against Sarkozy are just making him stronger, and allowing him to do his pre-electoral show.
What rioters are doing is just committing suicide: destroying their neighbourhood and acting the way their enemies want them to. Of course, what comes to mind is "these guys have to be desperate". Yes they are, but it's up to them to tell clearly what they want, because confusion doesn't serve their means. They're paving the way for politicians and religious freaks to give their own explanation about the events.
It's sad.

Le Pen! The 80s are back for sure!
Maybe Luc Besson should make a movie about the riots.

My girl's is currently on a plane to Lyon. She will be in the suburbs for the next few days.

I told her to take a picture of some burning cars.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Newro,

quote:

Originally posted by Newromancer:
I told her to take a picture from some burning cars.

Of some burning cars, surely?

There's probably a good Franco-Germanic joke in there, but it's beyond me at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Kradlum:

quote:

Originally posted by Newromancer:
I told her to take a picture from some burning cars.

Of some burning cars, surely?

from? of? where is the difference? - Better now?

Seriously, somebody been there lately, how bad is it really? Having a project meeting there, right now, just doesn't feel right.

quote:

from? of? where is the difference? - Better now?

Well, "from some burning cars" would indicate she was inside the burning cars taking pictures of what was going on outside, while "of some burning cars" indicates she's in a (hopefully) safer place.

quote:

Seriously, somebody been there lately, how bad is it really? Having a project meeting there, right now, just doesn't feel right.

You should not worry... I live in Lyon, there's been a fight in the center of the town on the biggest place on saturday but only rioters and cops seem to have been involved in it.

Otherwise the suburbs are no more dangerous than they were before the events started. Just the usual things to care about, like any other town. Besides, everybody (even the media, would you believe that ?) say that there are less and less burnt cars.
Having written that, I hope your girl doesn't get into trouble here, but it's not what the TV shows...

Thanks Texel.

Haven't seen the TV shows, currently I don't have a TV ... only read the newspaper.

I know that she'll be fine. It's still a funny feeling. Was the same when she was in London on July 7th. She really has a feeling for beeing there on time.