Never underestimate the potential for conspiracy...

... or the power of stupid people in large groups.

OBL = Emmanuel Goldstein.

quote:

Originally posted by ArkanGL:


Only scared kids being made aware of the possible monster under their bed, which they had no could be there.
Then they demand reassurance.
It goes on and on.

I find it deeply depressing.

You guys are really overthinking this. Air crashes don't destabilize economies, terror attacks do. And they still represent deaths that can be avoided at the cost of nothing more than money and time. If that is all it takes, then why not? And before you say it isn't effective, recall that throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's hijackings and attacks at airports were pretty common throughout the world. They don't really happen any longer do they? It's not because people like us any better, I can tell you that.

Well.... It's kind of like getting a concecaled/carry permit, then putting on a tee-shirt that says "I am carrying a loaded weapon" under your shoulder harness and walking into a Starbucks to order a lattee.

You're not doing it for your protection, you're doing it to make a point.

and I would argue that air crashes and terror attacks have the same impact on an economy, until the talking heads start barking at the ignorant masses.

quote:

They don't really happen any longer do they?

Yes. All thanks to cockpits now having a real door. With a lock.

quote:

Originally posted by ArkanGL:
My point is : did you feel more endangered when you flying pre-9/11?

Nope - I was more worried flying on a transatlantic flight on the 10th anniversary of Lockerbee.

Restricting my toiletries to minimal amounts and putting them in a ziplock bag certainly doesn't make me feel safer.

Neither does taking off my shoes.

But I do feel more endagered at one train station. It's the busiest station in Denmark, underground, and it could be a prime target for terror.

If there's a long wait for my train, I take a different train to the next station and wait there instead.

quote:

Originally posted by editengine:

quote:

Originally posted by ArkanGL:


Only scared kids being made aware of the possible monster under their bed, which they had no could be there.
Then they demand reassurance.
It goes on and on.

I find it deeply depressing.

You guys are really overthinking this. Air crashes don't destabilize economies, terror attacks do. And they still represent deaths that can be avoided at the cost of nothing more than money and time. If that is all it takes, then why not?

Money and time are in finite supply. Using 1/20th of that money and 1/4 of that time, we could get every drunk driver off the road. Drunk drivers cause terror. A lot more of it.

And economies?

We could get the fuck out of Iraq AND Afghanistan now, save trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and maybe our economies would bounce back and people wouldn't have to go through the terror of losing a job, family or house. Un-winnable wars are terror. Not that the winnable ones aren't.

This latest bullshit isn't about terror, though. It's about politics. Elections. It's the new kissing babies and eating pie.

Fuck the bloggers.

quote:

Originally posted by Trogdor:
Money and time are in finite supply. Using 1/20th of that money and 1/4 of that time, we could get every drunk driver off the road. Drunk drivers cause terror. A lot more of it.

If you can tell me how I'm listening. The Girl got a DUI two years ago and she is still paying for it. Unless you can pay people to make better decisions when they're hammered drunk, drunk drivers are going to happen. Local communities make a ton of money off DUI enforcement. With all of the enforcement going on why have DUI numbers not been declining? It's profitable for one thing, and it is in human nature to make stupid decision when you're lit like an Irishman at Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by ArkanGL:

quote:

They don't really happen any longer do they?

Yes. All thanks to cockpits now having a real door. With a lock.

Remember that was a big deal though. People didn't want it, they wanted to see the pilot. The addition of locks was hugely controversial when it was proposed prior to 9/11.

Security bs has its reasons too. Uniformity, minimizing extraneous crap you have to check, concentric, repeated security checks, all are pretty standard security measures for a reason. Is it effective in detail? Not always, but as a whole it allows for a standardization of the very tedious process of security that makes it all more effective. There are a few people here that are involved with professional, real security that can speak about it better but I will give you a bs example from working at the bars. Not the same scale by any means but bear with me. I worked the back door of a big nightclub for a while. No initial entry, just re-entry. You go in the front, show your ID, get a band and walk in. My door was the exit and if you wanted you could go back in. I would then recheck your ID. Why? I got into a lot of 'discussions' with people about that. They had already been in. Already shown ID. Left it in their purse or with a friend why did they need to show it again. It was petty, and pointless, and frustrating for them. I also caught a ton of people that were trying to sneak in without ID. It is the nature of security, you miss shit the first time, so you do it again. We did that just to stop kids from getting into a freaking bar, why not do it for people getting on a flying bomb?

Today you will have a very difficult time getting explosives aboard a plane where the tedious security procedures are being adhered to. It might happen but it would take time and money to plan and execute and without a good chance of success why expend the effort?

Especially when you can toss a grenade into a crowded market full of tourists in your own country?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: editengine,

All the people who've ever died because of drunk drivers, plus all their families, friends, etc. are also still paying for DUIs. Not their own. Other people's DUIs.

In my experience, and I have a lot of experience with this, people who complain about the onerous burden of a DUI arrest are people who believe their right to drive a 3500+pound projectile around the streets while impaired outweighs everyone else's right to live.

Just sayin'.

quote:

Originally posted by Splitcoil:
All the people who've ever died because of drunk drivers, plus all their families, friends, etc. are also still paying for DUIs. Not their own. Other people's DUIs.

In my experience, and I have a lot of experience with this, people who complain about the onerous burden of a DUI arrest are people who believe their right to drive a 3500+pound projectile around the streets while impaired outweighs everyone else's right to live.

Just sayin'.

You're right, my problem with it is that it doesn't seem to be effective. If DUI enforcement was working wouldn't we see a decline in DUI rates? We're way off topic, I just wondered how throwing money at it might help.

There's *been* a decline in alcohol related fatalities since 1982. http://www.alcoholalert.com/dr...ving-statistics.html

I'm looking for stats on non-fatal DUI rates (haven't found them yet), but I can think of a few causes for DUI rates going up while fatalities go down. Law enforcement strategies preventing people who drive drunk from causing fatalities, for example.

You get the DUI rates to go down by getting people treatment for alcoholism or educating them on how to be responsible drinkers in the first place, which is a field that definitely doesn't have enough money thrown at it (having worked in that field, on the research/advocacy side, myself).

The whole "driving to the bar to have a drink" scenario just doesn't even compute for me.

Stop the freaking suburban sprawl, improve transit, something. You should only *go* to a bar by transit, taxi, or on foot. Or with a designated driver that sticks to the bargain.

Back on topic, they've arrested 12 in France today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10...?partner=rss&emc=rss

quote:

Originally posted by theminx:
Back on topic, they've arrested 12 in France today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10...?partner=rss&emc=rss

Good. And that was all the news that was necessary in the first place.

quote:

I'm looking for stats on non-fatal DUI rates

You prob won't find good ones. Most are misdemeanors and the courts treat them as traffic citations unless there is an injury involved and I don't know of any DoJ stats on traffic infractions. It would be like keeping track of how many speeding tickets are issued. Fatal DUI crashes are declining, although not as fast as overall fatalities are declining, which suggests that DUI's in general aren't slacking off, just that fewer people are dying from them.

Keep in mind unless there is an injury, just like driving while texting or speeding, there is no crime involved. How is one stupid behavior so different from the others? After all speeding and drunks are the two biggest killers on the roads, why is a DUI ticket stigmatized while a speeding ticket gives you bragging rights?.

Good, I suppose, to see France really wasn't blowing smoke up the world's butt. Speaking of different types of terror attacks it seems like there are fads out there in what to blow up. It used to be hijckings, then I remember a whole spate of ticket counter shootings where people waiting to check their bags for a flight would be sprayed with bullets, then there was the naval period where smaller cruise ships would be hijacked. Ever since Spain there has been a focus on transit systems. Is there really a terror target picking style? Who decides these things? Is there a Vera Wang of terror attacks that decides each fall what that seasons favorite target will be?

"Buses people! Buses! Everybody will blow themselves up on buses this year! Get those hemlines above the ankle so you can mingle in and find a good seat on the aisle!"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: editengine,

The "target" governments release a list of "expendable options". Letting the gardner know where the weeds are....

I thought this was just a reaction to the US economy down the shitter, and them wanting to spread the love around.

lol.... "Mutually Assured Destabilization".