I'm not too bothered about feeling proud of my country but this did bring on a mild glow of achievement...
BBC news



"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"

quote:

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More than a quarter of Britons thought the world would be more peaceful with nobody believing in God, but very few people in other countries agreed.

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I never seen it that way, but as atheist, I must agree.
God seems to be one of the most common reasons for war.

____________________________________________
There's a place at 127.0.0.1 - I've seen it!

I disagree. I think any given religious reasons
are usually more a form of cultural self-
preservation rather than strictly religious. It
comes out as religion because that's the easiest
way to dictate why your culture should be as it
is. Take away religion and the fighting will keep
happening.

Also, cultural preservation isn't the only reason
for war. There are also economic and political
factors involved.

I'd like to see how the survey had been worded.

There's lies, damn lies and statistics, as someone once said...



"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"

I think that the problem is not with people believing in God, but with too few people believing in the possibility that they could go to Hell.

Satan needs a PR program.

--------"Somebody hits me, I'm going to hit him back. Even if it does look like he hasn't eaten in a while." -Charles Barkley

I don't think hate is exclusive to religious groups. Religion tends to come up as a convenient excuse for people's preconceived notions. People will hate, regardless.

I ascend

"God seems to be one of the most common reasons for war."

Post hoc justifications, maybe, but reasons? Does that include going to war to end slavery is in the same category as blowing up a night club just because it's frequented by infidels?

"... too few people believing in the possibility that they could go to Hell.
Satan needs a PR program."

Doesn't that suggest, from Satan's perspective, that his PR program is working fantastically well?

Bellham

@ Bellham

Yeah ...

If there would be no such thing as religion, they would simply find a different excuse to kill the other ... because the real cheap reason behind it, will allways be there. (ethnic, gold, oil, or what so ever).

But religion, god seems to be a simple and good excuse (allways has been, think about the crusades).
Brings me to a new questionn, Would a nation start a war for religious reasons alone?

Sounds somehow absurd for us living in the Western Countries ... but how do peaople in the middle east think about it?

____________________________________________
There's a place at 127.0.0.1 - I've seen it!

"I think that the problem is not with people believing in God, but with too few people believing in the possibility that they could go to Hell."

from _In the Mouth of Madness_
Sutter Cain says something along the lines of: "Religion never understood the essence of fear enough to make it real"

No reason for outlawing God just because (chagrin)the law (or in some cases outlaw) is out godding.

"Doesn't that suggest, from Satan's perspective, that his PR program is working fantastically well?"

from _The Usual Suspects_
Verbal says something along the lines of: "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he's not real"

As far as going to war purely on religious grounds, I feel comfortable saying that that was the prime motivator in the crusades. Sure, there was other stuff involved. But back then, culture and religion were absolutely indistinguishable. Religion simply doesn't penetrate western culture to that degree anymore.

As far as modern examples go, let's look at India for a minute. And I don't mean their various tussels with pakistan, either. I'm talking about the internal violence, the hindus and the muslims, rioting and killing and all that. That's an example of religious culture sparking violence. Another example would be the strife in Ireland, which is largely a catholic/protestant thing. You do have groups like the Ulster Defense Force, which is a protestant faction opposed to british rule, but the lines are mostly drawn along religious grounds.

Forget war. I think that society as a whole would be a lot better off if they abandoned superstition entirely. There would still be wars, obviously, but I think people would be better off in their daily lives. But hell, that's not what this discussion is about, now is it?

I ascend

@ Shadoth

Nothing wrong with getting from a to b in an discussion, is it?

The conflict in Idea is a good point.

But I disagree about the crusades.
The Katholic church used them to get rich and 'world'-Dominiating. (If you are just rich and powerful enough, isn'T the world the next logical step?)

However, start googling and you will find some intrasting facts about the crusades.
The landlords often written all ther land and wealth to the church, just for the case they die.
Not likely given the technologie ... but still, people died and the church got rich.
( Even more astonishing for me was that for a time beeing, the church sugested to the people that inherit is something ... not so fine ... but if you give all your eathly possessions to the church ... absolution will be sure ... and so they did.)

The man who came home form the crusades often came home as rich man. -> So much for there motivation.

The Katholic church today still posses half of the sites in Rome ... and has uncounted wealth under there Vatikan ... still they bag for alms.

____________________________________________
There's a place at 127.0.0.1 - I've seen it!

"Would a nation start a war for religious reasons alone?"

It's a bit of a technicality, but by the time the modern nation state arrived in a recognizeable form, wars of religion were becoming a thing of the past, tho there is certainly no reason why religion can't, or hasn't been, a principle motive, as well as justification.

So yes, I'm sure many a war, and many a murder, many a riot, many a sin, were committed from motives that cannot be described as anything but religious (especially as religion claims jurisdiction over all of life -- in terms of jurisdiction, if not always with executive, or enforcement powers).

But I'm not convinced that religious differences remain as great a threat to peace as political or cultural differences. And since religions have also provided the motives for peaceful and other good behaviors, I would resist labelling religion as part of the problem unless we are careful to include the multitude of other contributory factors. Just as I would be wary of religion being advanced as a possible solution, without being careful to include a long list of other possible grounds for establishing peace and goodwill.

Bellham

I would like to point out that the survey did indicate that 71% in the US said they were willing to die for their religion or beliefs not kill for them.

As Shadoth has has pointed out before the whole of Christian law is: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

I don't see how that could ever be twisted into kill your neighbor.

If they're killing and they're christian, they're in the wrong.

Well if your an atheist you can´t blame religion for wars, rather you have to examine the reasons and purpose that drive those who people religion.

But everyone have their onw way in the invocing of private deites¨as compared to readymade belief systems that are strung in the array of hierarchies and groupthink. But neither is to blame for the actions of people. And the deed you do defines you and who you are.

for your reading pleasure, one particular Briton's view:

Is there an Artificial God?

Yes a personal "God rest in peace (literally)" deity of mine DA.

Shoots Score Threepointer Swowoooosh..

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBellham:
"... too few people believing in the possibility that they could go to Hell.
Satan needs a PR program."

Doesn't that suggest, from Satan's perspective, that his PR program is working fantastically well?

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I sit corrected! You are right, of course. If Satan exists, then it is indeed in his interest to convince us he does not. Reminds me of a strange book that a very strange fellow told me about once: He couldn't remember a title or anything, but he said it was essentially religious scifi. Heaven and Hell both had 'consulate' type institutions on Earth. Heaven's consular officers were constantly at work. Hell's officers pretty much sat back and enjoyed the show, believing that evil was best taken care of when people were not reminded of the existence of Hell.

My point, as I imagine you saw, was that most religions have made it a practice to talk about the myriad ways that members have of getting into Heaven, but talking about Hell only as something that non-members need to worry about. Entry to heaven, for some Christian sects, requires only baptism and 'acceptance that Jesus Christ was your savior.' Damn (no pun intended), that's easy. Every asshole and his cousin is going to be in that Heaven. Freedom of religion has led to competition in the spiritual marketplace. That competition has led to churches outbidding each other on issues of Salvation.

Proddy 1: Join us, and if you're nice you'll go to Heaven!

Proddy 2: OH YEAH? Join us, get splashed, say a sentence, and you go to Heaven no matter what! We'll even cover up for your spouse and child abuse! When the wife goes to your preacher to ask him to intervene to keep her from getting raped in front of the kids every night, we'll tell her to shut up and like it! And you'll STILL go to Heaven!

Proddy1: Dang, I need to rewrite some of our doctrines. I can't compete with that.

--------"Somebody hits me, I'm going to hit him back. Even if it does look like he hasn't eaten in a while." -Charles Barkley

"Freedom of religion has led to competition in the spiritual marketplace."

And I blame Gutenberg and that damn printing press. Next thing you know, they'll put the internet on computers, and all hell will break loose.

My memory for scripture is getting fuzzy, but I seem to recall a passage ... wait, they *do* have the internt on computers... {Googles}:

"3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Ok, so I can't blame human nature on the printing press. As to the story you reference, all I can think of is C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters and the movie Beetlejuice (ok, not heaven so much as the bureaucracy of the afterlife). And well, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on both counts.

Bellham

quote:

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Originally posted by Splitcoil:
...but talking about Hell only as something that non-members need to worry about. Entry to heaven, for some Christian sects, requires only baptism and 'acceptance that Jesus Christ was your savior.'

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The problem is that 'Fire & Brimstone TM' preaching has gone out of fashion.

The style nowadays is what they broadly refer to as 'Prosperity Ministry'. Basically, as children of God, God wants what is best for his children - he wants to bless his children. Obey God, you will be blessed. (and we are talking earthly riches here... financial prosperity) This type of teaching breeds middle class churches which fail to address alot of the things that the more traditional church once facilitated, even in terms of spiritual guidance and teaching. They also tend to put absolutely nothing back into their communities.

As far as I'm concerned they should have their tax free status removed.

Eat my threadjack.

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Bring me an Englishman at once.

I've got the solution.

In the U.S., churches are tax exempt. I say we write into the law that in order to maintain that tax exempt status, preachers have to do something like radio stations do when they are required to make station identification pauses every so often.

In order to remain tax exempt, all sermons must contain the exact words "YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON'T STRAIGHTEN UP!" at least once every three minutes. All church flyers/publications can have only one title, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL UNLESS YOU BEHAVE, and that title has to be in type at least twice as large as any other print on the publication. All religious videos will begin and end with at least five minutes of graphic scenes of people being tortured in Hell with the voiceover "This is YOU if you're not nice to others, all the time, not just at church!" Additionally, at least one congregation member has to be beaten for "wickedness" at any and every church meeting.

There, I think we've knocked that problem on the head.

--------"Somebody hits me, I'm going to hit him back. Even if it does look like he hasn't eaten in a while." -Charles Barkley