the one thing that I feel - despite having no evidence - is that the story of those plucky 'Let's Roll' passengers who overpowered the hijackers, but sadly died in the resulting plane crash, is bullshit.
Can't help feeling that the plane was shot out of the sky - and the rest is PR.

they have the internet on computers now?

There are some reports, including a few from credible sources, that this is exactly what happened. Frankly, I wouldn't blame anyone if it's true


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From the very beginning, I'd assumed the Shanksville crash was the result of an aggressive interception. The debris field seemed awfully large.

Lisa Beemer, who seemed awfully 'made for TV' disappeared quickly. Why? I have to belive there were *powers* that would've liked to turn her into some sort of figurehead.

On the other hand, the families heard the tapes.

To steal a line from Rydell:

"You're crazier than a sack full of assholes."

I mean it in a friendly way, though.

Politics is a big whore. -Romanian proverb

An 'acquaintance' of mine, maintains that there is no photographic evidence of the planes that hit the Pentagon and that field.

I haven't gone looking yet, but I plan to.

An online source says they are sure that Osama Bin Laden is already found, and will be pulled out like a hatted rabbit right before the election. We'll see on that one.

Frankly I thought it was really surprising how much photographic evidence there was of the hits on the World Trade Center, especially the video by those French documentary guys of the first plane. (In fact, this has been used by some conspiracy spinners as evidence that it was planned-- and presumably the people with cameras were part of the conspiracy.)

I remember seeing once, on TV, a series of shots which looked like they came from a security camera or something of the hit on the Pentagon. Vague, but there it is.

I wouldn't expect any photographs of the Shanksville crash. How many plane crashes get photographed, even these days?

________
You have to give up.

There are four excerps over at Salon from a new book investigating the connection to Saudi Arabia that you might find interesting.
http://dir.salon.com/topics/craig_unger/

You have to watch an ad for a free daypass.

"Immediately after 9/11, dozens of Saudi royals and members of the bin Laden family fled the U.S. in a secret airlift authorized by the Bush White House. One passenger was an alleged al-Qaida go-between, who may have known about the terror attacks in advance."

"Did the Saudis buy a president?
How much money has flowed from the House of Saud to the Bush family and its friends and allies over the years? No one will ever know -- but the number is at least $1.477 billion."

"I remember seeing once, on TV, a series of shots which looked like they came from a security camera or something of the hit on the Pentagon. Vague, but there it is."

Yes, I vaguely remember seeing footage of the Pentagon with a smoking hole in it, but don't remember any sort of jet rubble around same.

"I wouldn't expect any photographs of the Shanksville crash. How many plane crashes get photographed, even these days?"

Oh god, only ALL of them. I don't know if it's for insurance purposes, or some sort of ghoulish media tendency, but we get a lot of that sort of thing on tv here in the States.

I don't really understand why a section of 9/11 conspirarcy theorist keep obessing about whether the plane hit the Pentagon or not.
Cause what ever happened - I'm pretty fucking sure that the other two planes hit the two towers.
Just strikes me as strange - like JFK nuts osbessing about the shooting of John Connely

they have the internet on computers now?

To my knowledge there is no film of a plane hitting the Pentagon. For a conspiracy theory, absence of evidence is evidence of a coverup.

Bellham
~Arguing principle from convenience is no principle at all.~

quote:

---

For a conspiracy theory, absence of evidence is evidence of a coverup.

---

Yeah, yeah, yeah...not to be rude, but I covered the inherent circularity of conspiracy theories in another post.

Grrrrrr.

I started this to look not for the *reasons* why things happend, but rather to examine the discrepancies apparent in what *actually* happend. There is a big difference in the two discussions.


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Oh, I was just answering Chatsubo's question and now I'm not following the digitalprimate mindcontrol protocols on proper thread etiquette. So, your little plan to turn us all into your paranoid lackeys has gone awry, has it?

You didn't count on us strapping on our tinfoil helmets *before* logging onto the forums, did you? Nor did you account for my rewiring my battery-operated thermal socks to construct a neural filter for your satellite transmissions, so of course you would be suprised when the thread went astray.

Thought you had us there, didn't you, digitalprimate, if you really *are* a primate.....

Bellham
~Arguing principle from convenience is no principle at all.~

Hey man, that stuff's Prius' bag. I'm just here for the free beer

Of course, the good Dr. might be surpised at how easily his plan was thwarted...


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[This message was edited by digitalprimate on March 18, 2004 at 01:25 PM.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chatsubo:
the one thing that I feel - despite having no evidence - is that the story of those plucky 'Let's Roll' passengers who overpowered the hijackers, but sadly died in the resulting plane crash, is bullshit.
Can't help feeling that the plane was shot out of the sky - and the rest is PR.

---

I can't say anything about the shooting down of
the aircraft, but the passenger fighting back
scenario is certainly plausible. You've got
roughly, what, 4 terrorists trying to hold off
a number of passengers. Even if only 20 passengers
were determined enough to stop them, those four
terrorists would have to be packing some pretty
intense zanshin to stop them.

And I know how I'd react (always the perfect rule
of thumb for us crazies, no?). If I knew what the
terrorists were going to do with the plan, there's
no way, I'd let them. They'd have to kill me to
stop me and while a box cutter may stop one person,
there's no way you could stop 4 or 5.

--
"I *so* wish I were an archaeologist." -- digitalprimate

Conspiracies happen, but like all other human endeavors, most of them fail. In conspiracy theory, they are always successful and the conspirators always get what they want and are never exposed.
Charsubo, remember the Concorde crash. It was caught by not one but two casual video shooters. Of course, maybe they were ... ah, screw it.

Oops, I meant to say Colin. There must be a hole in my foil.

I'd just like to clarify that I meant how many crashes are photographed as they happen.

I would also suggest that the Concorde, which was just taking off over an urban area (if I'm not mistaken) is more likely to be caught on film than the nosedive of an off-course jetliner in rural Pennsylvania.

I do remember quite clearly the after-the-fact pictures of the Shanksville site. (Tinfoil hat wearers can always escape via the 'photographs/crash sites were faked' avenue.)

The Pentagon pictures I'm talking about appeared, like the WTC films, to capture the moment of impact. (I remember the blooming fireball, though I can't remember if the plane itself was clearly visible.) This is why I found it suprising I didn't see them elsewhere. The reason I say it looked like a security camera tape is because it seemed to consist of one low resolution frame per second (in color though, which is unusual).

The idea that there was no actual plane at the Pentagon is not one of the theories that I find particularly plausible. (It's a bit better than the 'UFOs did it' one though.)

Edit: Here's a nice little blurb about a simulation of the Pentagon hit.
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

________
You have to give up.

And I think I need to clarify that I was talking about pictures post-impact. It is indeed damn amazing that there is footage of the Towers being hit.

colin, if you run across any photos of the Shanksville debris field, I'd be interested to see them. Can't find any myself, so far. Ditto the Pentagon.

I remember sitting in a diner with a friend and an acquaintance about a week after 9-11. I said, 'Hey, have you heard that the radio stations have a banned song list? They've banned 'Imagine' and 'Blowing in the Wind.' And they scoffed and said, 'Oh, that's just a bullshit conspiracy theory.'

________
You have to give up.

I also found this, but I have no idea if it is really from Shanksville:


And this site has lots of images (along with lots of patriotic ... stuff).

http://www.fantasticallyvintage.com/Tribute.htm

________
You have to give up.

[This message was edited by colin on March 18, 2004 at 07:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by colin on March 18, 2004 at 07:53 PM.]